I own 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks, mother and son. I bred from my girl this summer, she is a show quality dog, although I don't show her. We had a litter of 6. I placed these pups in the best homes I could find, and not for the huge prices you see some going for. I kept a dog pup, and having found a dermoid sinus in him we have recently had this removed. Yes, its been costly, and painful for him, but he is a happy pup with a fantastic temperament and will heal perfectly well, I would never have put him down. His mum has now been spayed, and he will be neutered later, I would not breed from either of them knowing that this had occured in this breeding line. I love the breed for their looks, temperament and loving nature. There is nothing wrong with wanting a pedigree dog, at least you know what your getting, but they should'nt be bred regardless of genetic, hereditary or other faults. There are responsible breeders out there, but the bad few, who ARE only in it for the money need to be weeded out. The KC along with the RSPCA should have breeder control, and enforce health checks for all breeding dogs. The KC should also refuse to register pups bred from parents who have had no health tests at all (my own dog was hip scored and in very healthy condition before the mating, as was the sire) I did all that I could to ensure we had healthy, fit pups, unfortunately the dermoid sinus was present in this one pup. It is not a result of interbreeding as the sire had no dogs in his pedigree that were in my girls pedigree. Lucky for him, I kept him and dealt with it, some breeders would have just culled him. And by the way, ridgeless pups can also have the dermoid sinus, it is rare that it occurs in the ridge itself. The ridge is NOT A DEFORMED SPINE, its just hair growing in the opposite direction, if the spine was deformed then they wouldn't be able to run so fast, and spend hours swimming, playing and chasing each other around!!
I have two dogs. One is a ridgeback/whippet cross, the other is a labradoodle. They are the best dogs you could wish for. The way a dog looks shouldn't matter: if it's happy and healthy, NOTHING else should matter.
I grew up with Setters, and as far as i'm aware responsible breeders for these dog types, and i'm sure the same applies to other pedigrees too, research the sire before they pair him with their bitch to ensure minimal chance of hereditary problems, eg hip defects seen in gun dogs. I have no doubt most responsible dog breeders who get into their business do so due to a love of the breed / dogs and thus take utmost care to avoid the terrible problems that sometimes befall certain breeds due to the inbreeding that has gone on over so many years! Naturally the BBC show in question picked up on a certain breeder who was ignoring her duties, but you will always get some who spoil things for others, making everyone else look bad too... I'm sure if the Kennel Club introduced some sort of service to assist in the pairing of dogs and bitches to avoid these conditions in their offspring, with some certification to say it has been undertaken then it would be welcomed by both responsible breeders and potential owners cautious after hearing about some of the harrowing conditions some dogs fall victim to... as long as no guarantees were attached to it! In fact by supervising breeding of pedigrees in a more regimental way this could also assist in the wiping out of that far more cruel and horrific system of PUPPY FARMING, which we still seem yet to be able to eradicate from our 'animal friendly' land. Harrods is even selling puppies in its store for obscene prices, in a manner far removed from the recommended 'meet the parents' or at least 'meet the mother' Who is to know what condition these puppies were born in, at around £1000 a go they could be farmed intensively then sold on for a very tidy profit! But then wot else would you expect from a store which sells fur! I do wish we could make them reconsider their policy on both these issues.
I don't think any of us are trying to say that all pedigree dogs are deformed and being maltreated. But cruelty is occuring and that is what we are saying should be stopped, you can't deny that some breeds are being abused, with snouts that cause breathing difficulties etc. there is scientific evidence of this. You only have to look back at how dogs used to be, what they used to look like, to know that some of the traits we are breeding into them are damaging them. I for one am not accusing every pedigree dog owner of cruelty in that they are being mistreated. However, it is human opinion, our perception of how these dogs "should" look and our dictation that has led to most of these problems, and that is what I think should be stopped. If we stopped artificially breeding these animals what would happen? They would eventually return to their original shape/size/colour, the phenotype that they first evolved into in order to survive. They wouldn't have had such high incidences of breathing problems, because they would have adapted to overcome the short snout causing the problems. What we are doing to some pedigree dogs is reversing the effects of evolution.
Chloe - no it isn't. What it is is evidence that these days the media, biased or not, is more powerful than the whole truth. The person who made the docuumentary has openly admitted that she biased the programme to get a reaction. No-one is saying that some breeds do not have major issues but they are by far the minority and the programme said ALL breeds were affected and that just is not true. My biggest problem with this, because I know that the breeds that I have are healthy and that there are tests in place to make sure that they are, is that I can now NEVER again watch a BBC documentary without feeling that I am being misled and that what it is saying is just not true; that makes me sad as I trusted them to always be honest and unbiased BECAUSE they should be as we pay for them to be honest. Also, I am extremely disappointed with the RSPCA, Dogs Trust and PDSA because they have allowed a media farce to affect their behaviour and again they are reliant on OUR money - if there are such bad issues then the very last thing that they should do is move away from the pedigree dog world BUT they have. They should be being much more involved, they should go to Crufts and set-up displayes showing all of the pedigree dogs that they have seen that have health issues and help to force through change. I personally do not care if Crufts is on the telly or not, it managed well before telly and can and will do so again. There are thousands of us who own and love pedigree dogs and we will always go to Crufts and Discover Dogs.
Well, have just arrived back from my latest visit to a championship dog show where 4863 pedigree - yes, pedigree - hounds, terriers and gundogs were entered. I have to say, given that they are all mutants who are in great pain and are all suffering from the most dreadful illnesses and deformaties they ALL seemed well, happy and fit (try chasing after one if they manage to get away to see if they are fit-for-purpose)!! Vets MUST have some excellent drugs available to them to be able to so successfully mask the horrendous genetical problems that the dogs all suffer from, I wish that the same drugs had been avilable to me when I had an immune system problems 30 years ago, perhaps then I wouldn't have been disabled for so long!!!
I watched pedigree dogs exposed and was horrified. i was angry at the old school sort of breeders talking about 'furnishings' and the sight of the German Shepherds who evn a child could see were lame and looked abnormal and I couoldn't believe they were in the show ring.
However, I think the programme was biased and should have showed more view points from nice breeders, rather than just the uncaring ones. I think the programme should have showed what the kennel club have done, and showed some of the good in health tests. I really think this programme is going to alienate the breeders and therefore KC will have no control over progession. i also think the rspca just wiping there hands of the KC was a silly move. how is the rspca going to be able to have its say now.
sirius u are obviously very passionate about dogs and are one of the caring ones. but please read my arguement posted below as well as this one.
at my work (a vets)an owner brought her 10 week old husky puppy in for vaccinations. she had told us the story of the breeder. the breeder had wanted to but the litter to sleep because she did not think they were of showing standards. the vet refused so the breeder handed the puppies into husky rescue. once the puppies were weaned the breeder went back to husky rescue, took her pick of the puppies she wanted to keep and abandoned the ones she thought weren't good enough. I realise this is probably a fairly isolated case but killing healthy dogs for looks does happen. may be the kennel club don't agree with it, i don't know, but many beeders do and I cannot see how they can call themselves dog lovers. there are many loving caring breeders out there and it is a shame they are now all being discriminated against.
personally when i do get a dog of my own, i will go to a rescue centre. if the right dog for me that i there at the time is a pedigree, i will get a pedigree, but if it is a mongrel i will be just as happy. dogs are dogs and whatever there looks they deserve to be loved and treated with respect.
Mags53 I would just like to say I disagree with u about your comments on neutering. if an owner if no going to breed form a dog it is unfair psychologically to not castrate him. imagine having the hormones that make u wnat to mate consantly circulating the body telling him to do it everytime he smells a bitch in season. yet he is retrained and cannot carry out what nature is telling him to do. that dog will be frustrated, and quite often will vent that frustration through aggression and destructiveness. yes surgery has a small risk but what about testicular tumours and prostatic health problems, perineal hernias and the list goes on?
Bitches may not get as frustrated but it is sad to see someof them go through pseudo-pregnancies. and again, surgery has a small risk involved but what about pyometras, mammary tumours that metastise to the lungs etc. these are life threatening. the risk of urinary incontinence is not completely understood yet but i think the risk of incontinence outways a pyometra. (a pyometra is a severe infection of the uterus and can kill a otherwise healthy dog very quickly)
Many pedigree dogs are happy and healthy, and many breeders are lovely caring people. It is a shame that the nasty ones are pulling the reputation so low. I am a veterinary nurse and agree that all dogs get sick but nobody can deny that some breeds pass on healh issues. how many king charles spaniels have I seen being treated for heart conditions, how many spaniels have I seen with really disgusting ears, how many squashed faced breeds have I seen with BAOS?, how many germa shepherds have i seen with pretty much everything going wrong. Some of these illness are do to with the aging process and but there is no way anybody can deny that these health issues are more likely to be there at some point in a pedigree's life.
I am not saying stop breeding them. just stop breeding to such an extreme. the breeds have been exaggerated. the victorians were stupid. they didn't have veterinary experts in those days. look at how they treated there servants. if they werent from a good family they were shunned adn the kids coldn't go to school. we've moved on in all these areas so when are we gonna move on when it comes to dog breed?
I am also not saying ban dog shows. many dogs enjoy them and owners. But healthy happy dogs should be considered a championship example of a breed. not a dog that is suffering.
The kennel club have started the hip and elbow dysplasia scheme and many eye health tests to enjoy that healthy breeding is considered. however, i dont think enough breeders are taking part. people who are buying dogs need to be more educated into what they are looking for so that breeders are forced to do the necessary tests.
I think dogs should be born naturally. There isn't really anything else to it, there was someone on my street who had the most ugliest dog in the world! It had a squashed face with stubby little legs and she hardly ever took it out for a walk, and when she did try to it wouldn't go so she stuck it in her handbag! Thank lord she left with that horrifying little rat!
I have a pedigree Beared Collie, he is now 16 years old and we have had him since he was a baby. In the first 13 years we only had to take him to the vets for his boosters and once to get checked out after getting attacked by another dog. Admittedly the last 3 years he has had to go alot more due to various different things such as skin problems & ear infections, but these things the vet has confirmed are down to old age!! I honestly think i've had to take my rabbit to the vets more and i've only had him for 2 years!!
And his breeders weren't in it for the money (although i'm sure it must have been nice!) They were serious dog lovers. I have never seen such a loving home.
5427 well I am pleased y our Meg is so loved and well cared for. However please do make such daft statements regarding pedigree dogs, ALL dogs be they have a pedigree or not can get an infection and just because a dog is a pedigree does not mean IT will get an infection!!! The vast majority of breeds do not have ANY exaggeration and lead happy healthy lives, the prime concern for any good breeder is the health and welfare of the dog they breed and a prime concern is the temperament of the dog and its offspring, in fact knowing the personality and temperament a dog is in fact the appeal for many people to own a pedigree dog, as with most cross breeds and mongrels the health and temperament of the dogs are often the breeders (if there has been a breeder involved) last concern. The Kennel Club for a long time have campaigned that dogs be “Fit for purpose and Fit for life” (another point the makers of PDE chose to ignore). As for short legged dogs not being able to run one of my breeds is shorter on the leg and can outrun ANY dog you would like to name.
I REALLY don't agree with breeding pedigree dogs. OK, so not all pedigree dogs have problems and infections but It's sick the way people breed dogs to have squished faces and legs so short they can barely run. I have a dog called Meg. She's a mixture of different breeds and she must be the happiest dog in the world! She's free from infections and she can run so fast. We didn't choose her because of the way she looks or what breed she is, but because she is so happy and we love her to bits!
My point is that I think dogs would be so much happier if they could do the things that they would love to do, and not get infections due to appearance. Ellie x
Sirius, i think you're wrong. Tammeazile has a point. okai so it may not be completely accurate coz in most cases pedigree doesn't mean pain but on the other hand in some cases it does!
we wouldn't not be friends with someone just because they're deaf or onli have 3 fingers so why should our dogs be any different? They shouldn't be bred for certain looks and expectations.
Tammeazile, Where on earth do you get the idea that pedigree dogs = pain, the VAST majority of pedigree dogs are happy healthy and loved and are produced by people who care for their welfare by having ALL the relevant health checks done, raising them in the correct way and with loved and kindness and ensuring they only go to good homes. The PDE programme has made the work done over the years by good breeder , the BVA and the Kennel Club and twisted it to suit them selves. Niblats yes I agree everyone is entitled to their own opinion, BUT I HAVE NEVER CONDONED the destruction of healthy dogs just because of their colour or markings!!! Pleased check back all I have put on here and see that is the case.......what you have said about me is deeply offensive. The Kennel Club HAVE NEVER told anyone to kill puppies because they do not look like the standard, please check your facts before making suck claims. There has been so many people obsessed by the breed standards on this blog and blame them for how THEY THINK dogs are, the vast majority of dogs do not match the standards 100% (that is why there are so few champions and even they are not 100% perfect and no one has bred the perfect dog) . Please Please Please people go to a local dog show and just watch the dogs there talk to the owners and the breeders about their dogs and how they love and care for them and do not listen to the rubbish and lies that was in PDE. Niblats I can understand how upset you must feel think of any dogs life being destroyed but what comment do you have on the 7,506 dogs destroyed by the RSPCA last year that is almost half the number they found homes for yet they had £320,000,000.00 last year to look after those dogs.
We have to start thinking about why we buy dogs. They are called man's best friend right? They're not a fashion statement but a companion, do we really care about what our friends look like? It's got to the extent where dogs are being bred to look their best not to be sold for their friendship, loyalty and comics. We are animals ourselves, so when it comes to friends would we rather have a friendly, comforting and funny but ugly friend, or one that's in a lot of pain and can't do much for you but looks the best. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with disabled people but when it comes to our pets its down to their breeding which we can do something about, it's our falt they're in pain.If the demand for the pedigree dogs ceases they'll stop breeding dogs like that. Pedigree means pain for the animal. It needs to be stopped.
sirius, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you think that the influence from the kennel club to kill some breeds of healthy puppies because they don't have the so called right markings on their fur or the influence to breed some dogs with health problems is the right thing to do, to living breathing animals then thats your opinion. But I think that the kennel club are contradicting themselves, by helping to save animals lives but telling people to kill the ones that they don't think look right. No I don't think that all the kennel clubs work has been a disaster, but I think that they are influencing people to do the wrong thing like letting people think that they can just put a dog down with no second thoughts only because it does not have the so called right markings.
By the way, let's just remember that the station who broadcast this bias is the same one that broadcast the Russel Brand/Jonathan Ross programme that has caused so much trouble. It is basically flawed. The RSPCA is the same organisation that happily takes money raised from pedigree dog shows but then stabs them in the back - that claims to have the interests of all animals at heart but is moving away from helping pedigree dogs due to a knee jerk reaction to a very biased programme.
I have had pedigree dogs now for 34 years and as yet have never had one with an hereditory problem. I have had one with a retained testicle due to trauma (common in humans who aren't interbred) and one with a wheat intolerance (same as me and I'm not interbred). Except for accidents they have NEVER needed veterinay attention for any condition (maybe a few more visits when they're over 10 years old). They have GOOD pedigrees, are shown (if they like it - most do) and I qualify them for Crufts. Sooooooooooooo NOT ALL PEDIGREE DOGS HAVE PROBLEMS. I have three with me now and they are all fine.
K9Love most of the breed standards do not need re writing in any way (the last major review was under the direction of a former President of the British Veterinary Association). The vast majority of people who breed dogs do not show them and pay little or no attention to the standards, so changing them would have no effect. Your description of breed standard dogs I also find as offensive as you have found criticism of working dogs saying that you think they cannot walk properly have you ever been to a major show and seen the thousands of happy health fit animals there?
The accusation you have made if unfounded is as bad as the one you took offense over. I am sorry your dog has an allergy problem but these can be brought on by so many things and have very little if anything to with their genetic background but often by their environment, food or as the result of a previous condition. If they appear to have problems with their back legs I assume you have had it hip scored or his patella’s assed by your vet and as a dog handler I assume you must be aware of all the KC/BVA health checks . The fact that you went to buy a pedigree dog I assumed that YOU had checked out the breeder in advance (and they your suitability to be a dog owner too) you asked and seen proof of hip and eye status of the parents and you had seen the pedigree so you could decide you thought in your view it was acceptable, after all of this you could of done prior to even seeing a
puppy let alone choosing one (such options you would of not had when buying a mongrel), if you did like what you had been shown you SHOULD not of bought the dog, The KC would and do provide all potential owners advice on what they should look for and ask when looking for a new puppy. As for having dog licenses like in the past the good dog owner would buy them and a bad one would not, so not solving any problem. As for vets putting down healthy dog none would do so for purely cosmetic reasons, however if you see my previous posting the RSPCA does not have a good record in that area.
Hi, I work with Dogs Day in Day out as a dog handler, i have a Pedigree Labrador who i get a vets bill on average once a month for due to Allergies, and he appears tired on his back legs on occassions, his pedigree is very interbreed and i fear i may not hold on to him as long as i would hope. i have a "Mutt" cross breed Spaniel, for search work, he only goes to the vets for a Vac once a year, i love all my dogs, but in the long run i would like a dog to be healthy, i dont care what they look like. The Kennel club needs to review every breed and re-write the breed standards, also stop interbreeding. mom and dad should have diffrent pedigree lines from 4 generations, i also found it, in very bad taste that working dogs where told they where not the correct standard, my working german shepherd can do everything and can walk, where breed standard dogs can hardly walk. I also feel that the kennel club should speak to people breeding working strains of dogs as the dogs are healthy, workable and people friendly. And Vets should be Finned if found to be putting Dogs to sleep, just because of there looks. i'm also a great believer in bringing back dog licences, maybe if someone sensible looked at everything from the dogs point and not us mere humans they would see, dogs came to be mans best friend,and we are killing them slowly, what friends are we to them.
i think that is is just plain wrong what they do to the porr animals they neva did any thing 2 u. so just leave them alone please so i can sleep easier at nite and i dont have 2 worry how those dogs r getting treated. so i say please 4 every 1's pice of mind dont hurt tha little animals. please. cause i have had 2 tell some 1 about some animal abuse
Ok lets get some balance on this subject. The producer of the programme has now publicly admitted that she wanted to shock people and did not think that the Kennel Club or those associated with it should be able to be given a voice as to what major steps and work have already been achieved in the world of canine health via it many schemes and practices and policies. There is now acknowledgement that most of the information given was either misleading, vastly inflated or downright lies. She said it was not her job to ensure that the programme was balanced in any way or should show the WHOLE picture in the world of pedigree dogs but just what SHE wanted to show.
Yes in the past and I mean over 40 years ago it was custom for some breeders to cull puppies be it because they had a large litter and the bitch would have trouble rearing them all (this normally advised by a vet) or it was because the puppies may have a fault (and not a aesthetic one) but if in some breed all white animals would be born deaf many breeders would have such puppies humanely destroyed. However this type of practice has all but been stopped in the last 30 years and to be honest I have not heard of anyone who has done so for many many years, the producers of the programme picked on two selected breeds and then tried to bend the truth to make it look like the Kennel Club condoned such policy which it has and does not! People forget that most show dogs are first and foremost people well cared for and beloved pets sharing their owners lives and homes, they have to be of good temperament (after all how many dogs would take to having complete stranger inspect every part of their body up to 60 or more times a year) and be surrounded by thousands of other dogs.
Most show dogs spend a very small percentage of their lives at shows, and if they did not enjoy the experience they would not and could not be successfully shown by their owners.Breed standard are only a guide/blue print for an ideal and only a very small will be a perfect fit to that (and only in some judges eye) and all standards have a wide variance within them so to think that a dog is discarded because it does not meet a standard 100% is a stupid statement to make!! You must also remember that many of the standards in existence are based on the Country of origin or the FCI and not just by the Kennel Club,
yet the producers did not make any comment as to how other breeds look around the rest of the world. The type of GSD shown in the programme is the one favoured in other parts of Europe and again no reference to this was made. #1Doggy Lover the person you state was the KC Manager is in fact its Chairman and is a very knowledgeable and caring man (his family have had dogs at the highest of lever for many generation) the tone of questioning he faced on the practice of Line Breeding and not In-breeding was both insulting and calculated. Although to humans the practice of mating a bitch to its grandsire would seem quite unacceptable (and rightly so)
in NATURE this in fact a common occurrence and for many pack and herd animals, or to put it in another way if an area has many stray dogs it will be the strongest and normally most aggressive dog that will mate with all the bitches in an area as he is the dominant, he will mate them regardless of what relationship he is to them be it father, grandfather or even brother, and many mongrels and cross breeds would be the result of such matings. Line mating to a common ancestor (four or more generations back) can be used to fix type in a breed , and yes it may bring out a genetic fault but it is as likely to prevent a gene being inherited and eradicate a genetic disorder and the actual
According to the annual report in 2007 the RSPCA rehomed/released (released means gave back to when dog was lost) 15,787 dogs yet it Humane euthanasia(ie destroyed)7,506 dogs more than HALF the dogs it rehomed!!! In fact in 2007 the RSPCA euthanized 66,489 animals (granted it less than the 72,042 they destroyed in 2006!!).
Their income in for 2007 was £114,100,000, it has £83.2 million in fixed assets, it has £123.5 million in investments so over £206 million pounds in assets and investments alone. Yet it spent £8,189,000 on campaigns and media work £1,349,000 on its Governance costs, and it it paid just 18 of its employees a total of £1.2 Million pounds in one year. So you asked can my source be trusted?
Well its all there in the RSPCA Annual review for 2007 – Trustees and Financial report (on the RSPCA web site). If the people at Passionate Productions really cared about animals perhaps they should of investigated the people who pay the that former TV presenter as their CHIEF vet!! And ask why an organisation who had access to over £320 million pounds in one year still destroys over 7,500 dogs...now that is a dogs story that should be exposed
mebecki - dogs don't want the same life as a human, they want the same life as a dog. They want freedom to express natural behaviour, to have the chance to run and sniff, and to eat decent food; they want the kindness and loyalty of their owner, whom they will follow to the end of the earth. niblats - the KC represent pedigree dogs and crossbreed dogs, and not all pedigree dogs are disasters; hardly any of them are - before you make statements like that find out what percentage have problems then compare that with the percentage of humans and other species that are "disasters". I think that people are mistaking pedigree dogs as all having been bred on puppy farms and, therefore, having behavioural and health issues - they don't have.
Niblats the primary objective of the Kennel Club is 'to promote in every way, the general improvement of dogs'. This includes its work with pedigree, cross breeds and companion animal. So what makes you think they are NOT working for the benefit of ALL dogs............ can you names one organisation that raise so much money for canine causes each year (through its charitable and its educational trusts, well over £3,000,000 donated todate), defends the rights of ALL dog owners(campaigning against the use of electric shock collars, dangerous dogs, puppy farming, chemicals testing on dogs, dog and cat fur, dog control orders and access at local and national levels of goverment) the school education schemes (SAS), the YKC, the good citizen training scheme, all the health checks schemes with the BVA,Discover Dogs, Scrufts, Working Trials and the setting up and running of the Petlog Scheme, and this is just a very small amount of work they do each year.......so Niblats would you say all this work has been a disaster??
Well Dawnie you put in your blog the following “My puppy is 25 weeks old and is very sick, i have had numerous visits to the vet, with her being treated for a severe case of kennel cough and masticatory myositis and she has now developed problems in her front legs. Inbreeding is causing these animals great distress and i would like to see these breeders and the kennel club brought to task” both the conditions you say your dog has are common to all dogs regardless of what or how they may be bred, neither are the caused of a genetic inheritance. Yet you go onto blame breeders and the Kennel Club for inbreeding, so if they are not linked why blame them?!? Resistance to infectious disease is not just about genetics, it also is to do with nutrition, environment, previous infections/illnesses . Masticatory myositis can affect many breeds/and non breeds of dogs as it would appear not to be inherited, yet the mode of inheritance or the frequency in dogs is still being investigated by breeders working WITH the veterinary practitioners, good breeder do care and strive to improve the health and welfare of their dogs. You say about needing stricter guidelines on breeding healthier dogs the following is what the KC recommends “Before breeding from a dog or bitch, the Kennel Club advises breeders to investigate whether there are any possible inherited conditions that may affect the breed. Breeders can do this by discussing the matter with the breeder of their dog, the relevant breed club or clubs, the Kennel Club Health & Information Department or, possibly, their veterinary surgeon. There are several health schemes currently in operation to assist in the prevention or control of some diseases (including DNA tests), and where they exist, the Kennel Club strongly recommends that both sire and dam are tested” The following is from the British Veterinary Association/Kennel Club report for 2007 “Joint Veterinary Screening Schemes with the B VA, The three schemes (KC/BVA Hip and Elbow Schemes and the KC/BVA/ISDS Eye Scheme) have continued to see increased submission rates. Approximately 11,500 certificates were processed by the BVA for the Hip Scheme, 1,400 for the Elbow Scheme and 18,000 for the Eye Scheme. The Kennel Club has made a commitment to use this health screening data to provide more informed feedback on the impact and progress of the schemes to breeders, with the intent of encouraging greater use. To this end, 5-year rolling mean hip scores for all of those breeds where more than 100 dogs have been scored are now being calculated. In almost all cases, this mean is falling year-on-year, indicating that hip scoring is having the desired effect, namely reducing the average hip score in future generations.” So in 2007 alone in just three of the schemes almost 32,000 examinations took place and these schemes have been running for many many years now, the work put in by the BVA,KC and breeders show THEY CARE and HAVE been taking action.
i never once said that kennel cough is caused by inbreeding i know it's a virus, however the other health issues my dog has, has just made me think that in general these dogs would be healthier and have a fightng chance to overcome some of the more commom ailments if stricter guidelines on breeding were put place.
Well Whippet let’s check out some of YOUR claims on here on the 27 Sept you criticized Mags 53 by saying "The reason that dogs trusts and animal welfare society's are so full of un-homed dogs is because people of your ideology have set standards of how a particular animal should look” Well there are over 850 Breed Rescue representative covering ALL the registered breeds(I can send you a list if you like), covering all over the country funded entirely by Breed clubs and individuals within breeds. The homes that any rescue dog is placed in are vetted to high standards, and the care of the dog is put above all other concerns, RSPCA REFUSE to work with breed clubs (unlike Battersea). Pedigree dog owners and breeder take great responsibility for their own breeds. If you look at the vast majority of dogs in rescue centres they are cross breed or mongrels, so how do you support you claim that the set standards of how a dog should look is the reason for these homes being full of un-homed dogs?!?!?!
Well Whippet you think I am boasting do you?? Why is that?? All I have written is things that I can back up with evidence by recognised published bodies and also after a lifetime in dogs (both pedigree and non pedigree) with over 35 years of experience in breeding and showing dog, working on Breed Club Committees, raising funds for welfare homes, dealing with breed rescue, as a Trustee of a canine welfare charity. My dogs first and foremost are my pets and companions. The breeds I have like ALL DOGS (not just pedigree) have some health conditions and I have worked over the years to reduce these, like all in my breed have, people who have devoted much of their life to a breed see themselves as just custodians and strive to keep that breed healthy and happy and protected. I am sure Mags 53 can stand up for their self, but you say that my comments are ill informed, subjective and disrespectful and without substantiation, please tell me just which ones have been and (as you say they are wrong tell me what proof you have?) I have only replied to comments posted by others. Tell me how many breed standards have you read and disagreed with there are approx 210 of them, just how many of them do you say are wrong? you say that breeds need to have their gene pools widen, are you not aware of the many hundreds of dogs imported from across the world each year to here to do that? The numbers of puppies from AI produced from dogs abroad (supported by the KC) each year, or the dogs that the KC have put on its register to allow gene pools to be extended (the Working Bloodhounds last year, the allowance of boxers to be crossed with Corgi to have a natural shorten tail) the practice you say takes place of inbreeding has for the past 30+ years rarely taken place with the exception of Puppies farmers who cannot be bother to, widen their gene pools (they are also unlike to register any dog with the KC but still will want to call them pedigrees). On 27/9 you said “Breed standards = profit. Either financial gain to a breeder or a farmer” so what of the people who now advertise cross breeds in the paper for £300, are they doing it for the love of dogs or money? You said that animals “should evolve by evolutionary laws” the vast majority of breeds have done so be that the climate or environmental areas they have come from, can the same be now said of the “Designer Breeds” like Cockerpoos or Labradoodles??? You said from a professional point of view that I need to do more research, please what is your professional standing and how much ACTUAL scientific and practical research have you done? You like to brand others with shame and labeling them as not being animal lovers.................. well be open and listen to others people knoweldge, experience and views, learn before you decide to shame others quite so quickly.
I post to these blogs from both a professional and personal viewpoint, with many years experience of owning and breeding animals. I view all subjects objectively not subjectively and do not have pre-conceived views on topics, I always look at the facts from all sides before forming an opinion - and am always willing to change my opinion if new facts prove that I am wrong; I accept that people are entitled to their own opinion and no one opinion is always right or wrong. I have never said here that all pedigree dogs or other types of pedigree animal are ALL free of devastating health problems BUT refute absolutely the premise that ALL pedigree dogs, etc. are genetically compromised and suffer lives of pain and ill health - because I have owned them for years and know that they are not. The damage done through this programme is that the RSPCA have alienated people who would have helped with improving things by stating, categorically, that ALL pedigree dogs are genetic mutants (and that term has a very specific meaning in genetic terms) and live a life of pain. Owners and breeders of pedigree dogs have worked for years to raise funds for the RSPCA and the RSPCA themselves have been given thousands of pounds by the Kennel Club for research projects raised by donations from the dog showing, working and competing world. It saddens me when extremists with a biased and sweeping view of subjects think that they are right in everything they say and take people who have a little knowledge with them. I wonder how many people who are posting here are aware of the actions taken by the KC since this programme? Actions that were already in the pipeline for the benefit of some of the breeds badly affected by health issues - and yes there are some where I think that the people who breed them should be horse-whipped - but as I've said before, these breeds are very much in the minority.
Can I just say from a professional view point, regarding the comments of Sirius and mags53, that you really do need to do some more research before boasting such comments to this blog. Your comments are as ill informed as they are subjective. They are also disrespectful and without substantiation, and therefore are not worthy of reply. Call yourself s animal lovers...you are the very people we are campaigning against.
I've just noticed that one or two comments here seem to indicate that people show their dogs at shows for financial gain. I'd just like to point out that at most shows all that you win is a piece of card saying what place you were awarded. The Crufts Best in Show winner receives the sum of £100 for beating several thousand other dogs - so we don't do it to win money - it costs you money.
Jelly cat yes it was a long comment but it is a very big subject of which many people only pick on one point and not the whole picture.
Megank, well if you want to blame the anyone for how Greyhounds are the Kennel Club is the last place, as they are a vulnerable breed ie there is less than three hundred dogs registered with them each year (in truth only about 10 litters are registered) the shape of the modern greyhound is all to do with racing dog, of which the Kennel Club HAVE NEVER had any say/control. If you a programme wants to expose THE biggest exploitation of dogs it should be the greyhound industry which has very little regulation or control and thousands of dogs are discarded by each year , after all how many other breeds have to have National Rescue trust for them? As breed Pugs and Bulldogs are things I do not find attractive (but many do thats why they are popular pets) however again many believe what they are shown on TV when just ONE old photo or ONE copy of a painting is SELECTED/USED to what the PRODUCERS of a programme say a breed SHOULD look like. Look at a number or old books and paintings and you will see there were many many different TYPEs within each breed as there still are today!!! (a little anatomy point for you a pig has a snout, a dog has a muzzle), Bulldogs and Pugs ears have stayed the same over 100 years and are no different now as they were then!?! So not sure why you say they are smaller?!?
did you know, pugs, bulldogs, and basset hounds werent always like they are now!! they had long legs, little ears and long snouts. But because of imperfect breeding, they had become small , squatty, wrinkled nosed dogs that many think are ugly. Greyhounds are becoming vunerable to this as people are force breeding them to become better athletes, but instead what they'll get is a bad backed dog with limp legs that has to be put down.
Please help put a stop to this and help protect our beautiful dog breeds!!!
Sorry manage to put my blog the wrong way round!!! well I am not a techie when it comes to PC, but please look at what I have said and I willbe happy to discuss or defend any point I have put and listen to what you think.
PART 3 NOtned yes the KC does have it head quarters in London but so does the RSPCA (I wonder if saying that will stop this blog?) but every year all the profits it makes from Crufts and any from the registration system goes back into canine Welfare via its charitable trust (the RSPCA have just had £45,000 from it) it also provides education support for schools and children on how to handle care and behave around dogs, it produces a Rescue Directory each year that lists the thousands of people who work for breed rescues and general canine charities and send it free to all police stations and vets all over the country and to anyone who requests a copy . KT & Dilian well you might disagree with Crufts but have you ever been to it (or the other 28 general championship shows held each year?) what people forget is all the dogs shown are living with people and are in the vast majority of cases people much loved pets. In fact most show dogs are far better tempered as they need to be physically examined by the judge (in some cases up to 5 judges in one day) and be in a ring with many many others dogs. The KC will in fact ban any dog who has been proved to have bitten a person or another dogs at a show, and will not allow any progeny they may be produced to be registered (there for stopping them from being shown or bred from) are any mongrels tested in this way? Sorry if this has upset many people but this is just the tip of the iceberg as to the misinformation by this programme and many comments post by people who have not looked at the full picture. Just to quantify myself I have been involved in dogs for over 40 years and am a third generation of a family who have shown, bred and loved their dogs, I work for a local canine society, I judge at Championship level shows (and temperament and soundness is key above anything for me!!!) and I am a trustee of a canine charity who deals with rescue and street dogs . I will be the first to admit that there are many bad practices in pedigree dogs but this programme was unbalance , bias, inaccurate, and in some cases has now made the plight of all dogs far worse, to quantify I now see people purposely breeding mongrel litters with NO health checks, no guarantee to take back the dog (as all responsible breeders do) but charge instead £ 400, which just goes into the pocket and the poor dogs I suspect into rescue centre in a years time!!
PART 2 The KC and the many vets schools have been working (and funding)not just in this country but all over the world to find new DNA test to reduce and eliminate. This program set out to sensationalise and showed just how poor it was researched and biased it was. The claim that £10M is spent each week on dogs at vets, did they say on what?? This would include vaccinations, check ups, caring after accidents, infections and diseases , these thing affect ALL dogs. The claim the Members of the Kennel Club were followers of HItlers was deeply offending!!! Eugenics is not a Evil plot to produce a PURE BLOOD race, it is the same thing practice by horse breeders or plant growers or anyone who looks to preserve a species/breed, the main proponent of this is Mother Nature herself, after a Lion is cat and so is a Tiger but they do not mate together do they!!! And as for in breeding in a wolf pack only the dominate female allowed to breed, and then when she is usurped normally by her daughter then only she will breed, well this means that genetic material of the pack will get reduced far more than any one who may line breed. As for the sad shot in the programme of the Boxer who fitted, the produces failed (they say it was an error) to mention that it does so only once a month and not as it was portrayed in the programme a several times a day, but I agree once a moth is too much. However did the mention all the work done by breed clubs and the Kennel club on this matter...No of course they didn’t, the same as the vet who was interviewed for an hour but only a few seconds of film was used and out of context as it did not match the message the producers wanted to give!!! In reply to Jess who rightly say many cross breeds and mongeral dogs need home, but can she tell me how many of these are checked for hip eye, patella, temperament problems?? No because people who breed them cant be bothered!!! And yes they do suffer with these problems. .
Having read through the comments on this site I find it hard to understand how many people manage to get some simple things , the person who thinks their dog has Kennel Cough as it is inbred!!! ITS A VIRUS ANY DOG CAN CATCH IT!!!. (well the produce of the programme think that her dog got cancer as it was inbred, so does that mean all people who have cancer are inbred!!, of course not emotions and sense do not always work together) Jean Levit not about one of her poor dogs that suffer with epilepsy it would of appeared to have bought from a Kennel that sell on dogs such places are dealers/puppy farmers and not reputable breeders who do such health check (did you have the status of the pups parents hips and eyes given to you?) if you had researched yourself with the help of the Kennel Club or Breed clubs you could of gone to a good breeder, yet you say you don’t register dogs at the KC as you say it is cruel and so is Crufts , yet they are the one who have and are doing the work and test you have chosen not to take advantage of?!? As for Penny who call for a country wide database of dogs who have failed test, well this is run by the Kennel club who publish all passes and fails of dogs in the KC/BVA test in the Breed Record Supplements 4 times a year (again the programme failed to mention any of this!!) As for Chloe who praises Mark Evans whos says dogs shows are cruel for dogs, yet how many have visited? (I doubt ever been to a dog show,?) If he has how many in the past year? Five years? 20 years? And how many of the dog there did he examine ? surely he must have his own personal evidence to back up the claim that show dogs are mutants and cripple?!?, as for discrimination for the colour of a dogs coat it has been proven that some colours are linked with hereditary problems (ie pure white boxer are often totally deaf), the vast majority of dogs have developed over many hundreds of years by either the environment they have come from or the purpose they were used for (a basic principle of Darwin) For well over 30 years good breeders have had their dogs checked through the Kennel Club/B.V.A Health Scheme for many conditions (over £20,000,000 on hip scoring alone in recent years) this has enabled them to breed sounder healthier dogs, and have reduced many problems that breeds have faced in the past
I cant help but feeling angry and disgusted with the people breeding dogs that will have poor quality of life due to inbreeding. I cannot understand that this is being allowed. It simply has to stop, before it gets more out of control.
The Kennel Club aren't strict about what you show and the breed standards. They may "own" the standards but it is the seperate breeds who define their standards. The breed standards are relatively vague and allow for a great deal of individual interpretation, that's why you get so many different types within breeds, and you do have some very different types within the same breed. Judges who reward over exaggeration are a problem - quickly followed by breeders who breed to that to win BUT not all breeders and judges do this. So long as the dog is actually registered with the KC you can show it; this does largely mean that it has to have had parents, etc. that are registered. Basset hounds that are still used as pack hounds a very different from the ones that are now shown BUT I could get a pack hound and show it so long as I had made sure that it is KC registered - I may not win with it but the KC would allow me to show it - it would be the judges who wouldn't reward it. The KC and breed clubs have done lots of work in recent years to improve the health of breeds who have health issues - no-one is saying that they don't need to do more and in some cases to be much more stringent with a few breeds that have issues. BUT, as I said at the start, alienating all people who own and breed pedigree dogs by saying that they are all mutants, with ill health, who live a life of pain is counterproductive and, frankly, so far from the truth, that only the easily duped, the ignorant or the prejudiced would take it seriously.
i dont think it is what actually happens in the shows themselves, i think it is the way it is judged, or rather the strictness of the kennel club. if they werent soo strict on what they were looking for, breeders wouldnt feel the need to exaggerate the features the judges look for, the gene pools wouldnt be soo small and the diseases wouldnt be soo much of a problem. at least noadays people are more aware of what they are doing and breeders that may have bred their dogs the wrong ways unknowingly, may now be aware of it and so it is happening less but if crufts and the kennel club continue to be soo strict on what they consider to be the 'perfect look' of each breed, the problem will still exist in breeders insistant on achieving this look. also whilst these breeds are promoted on crufts, the public will still want them making it a worthwhile buisness for things like puppy farms. no one is questioning what happens in the shows themselves, or at least i'm not. it's the message they are putting across to the public and more importantly what is not being told, i.e. what the BBC documentary did tell.
Whether Crufts is televised or not is a whole different argument, it was around for years before the telly got involved. There are hundreds of shows every year where people show their dogs, some of which qualify them for Crufts. Not shows like the Companion show held at the local fete, but run on similar lines to Crufts, which is just another championship show. These shows also sometimes include agility, obedience, etc. Crufts and other shows aren't just about the dogs, the handlers skills at handling their dog is also partly under test. The concept of Crufts and the KC isn't what causes problems in dogs but unscrupulous breeders/puppy farmers - they are what need to be stopped. I think that many people who have been blogging on this site have a limited knowledge about pedigree breeds and dog shows.
i dont disagree with the showing of dogs or agility at all. i'd love to get my younger dog involved in agility. the problem with crufts is the perception it gives of pedigree dogs and that they are ment to look a certain way. years and years ago people picked certain traits to use in hunting or whatever and thats where to trouble start but to be fair, people all those years ago didnt know what damage they would cause in the future. the problem now is that it is still happening when breeders (again not saying all breeders) are fully aware of what it's doing and the reason it is still happening is because soo few people are aware of the problems so are more than willing to pay hundreds for a pedigree pup that may well have health problems. i'm not saying all pedigree breeds have health problems because i have a pedigree westie and a pedigree sheltie and nether have had any health problems, or at least no genetic ones. the problem with crufts is that it is promoting these breeds to the public sat at home watching, most of whom wont be aware of the problems. so i dont disagree with showing in general and i'm not saying that dogs dont like it cos i know my dogs love anything like that where they get attention and praise but crufts is way too specific on the dogs look etc which is why it shouldnt be televised because it gives the wrong message to people watching. the people showing and alot of the people who actually go to watch are probably well aware of all of this stuff anyway so it doesnt need to be stopped altogether just revised on how it's judged, and promoting a better message to those watching. i just dont think it should be on tv.
I don't think that dogs should be neutered/spayed just so that owners can let them roam - I don't believe in putting any animal to an operation for no good reason - cats are a different matter, it is cruel to try to keep them at home all of the time. I know that accidents happen but that's what the morning after pill is for. I know LOTS of people who have spayed bitches a huge percentage suffer from a degree of incontinence and neutered dogs are often mounted by both dogs and bitches, it's cruel to do this unless they need it to cure a medical problem. And, I still say that NOT ALL PEDIGREE DOGS ARE SICK AND IN PAIN. Please do not brand all breeds the same - lets get everyone on board to help to sort out the breeds that do need help AND to expose the breeders who breed from dogs that have not been health tested. I have a dog with me now who is 9 years old and has not been to the vet since his last booster jab at 1 year old (I don't believe in annual boosters because they can cause damage) - he is fit and healthy AND A GOOD PEDIGREE WHO HAS COMPETED AT CRUFTS. I show my dogs as I have fun and so do they - and if they don't have fun I don't make them, they are after all my pets, going to shows is what we do together, some people do obedience or agility, I do shows. By the way, you can show speyed and neutered dogs.
I've been doing alot of research on this subject for a course i'm doing and i'm finding it very hard to find anything good that comes from crufts to actually make a good arguement for an essay. but anyway my main reason for posting is i've noticed that at least 1 person on this topic has said that theres no reason to spay/neuter dogs just because they have health issues, and also that theres health risks involved in the procedure. i would just like to set this one straight. dogsdo not have the mental capacity (as much as we might like to think so) to understand the implications of bringing more pups into this world whether we are talking inherited health issues or just adding to the growing overpopulation problem in this country. they breed by instinct, they do not have an emotional need to breed so there is no way you can compare them to a human who will bring a child into this world and care for it for at least 18 years and never stop loving it. there are no major risks involved with the procedure itself and any health issues that occur because of it such as incontenence in females, is soo uncommon that it barely stands up as an arguement not to spay/neuter. as for believing that you can simply not let ur dog out to be able to breed, i find that very naive. accidents happen and spaying/neutering is the only way to ensure you will not bring any more unwanted pups into this world when shelters are already heaving with perfectly good dogs looking for homes, many of which will never get and will end up being put down. the whole crufts issue only adds to this problem as breeders are bringing more and more pups along and encouraging the mostly unknowing public to buy them. i'm not saying people should stop breeding altogether, but it should be regulated and people should be encouraged to go to shelters more than breeders. i have 2 pedigree dogs myself, both bought long before i was aware of any of these issues but i can safely say had i known all of this i would have gone striaght to a shelter!
there should be an end to it - and puppy farming - there are enough dogs in shelters who need help, they are the ones who need homes.
it's not only the kennel club that are wrong here, it's also the customers of the kennel club. people should boycott getting the 'perfect pet' - that's the only way this will stop. however there are certain members of society who just simply do not care for animal welfare; they just want a cute pet!! i can almost guarantee that even after this programme, some people will continue funding crufts and the kennel club.
my dog is super cute and he's a rescue - as dollymay62 said, you can't beat a cross breed!!
I agree totally with you Dawnie, we could still have our breeds of dog, for they already exist, but, because of the kennel club, they are becoming increasingly inbred to meet 'show standard' requirements. Very sad, not just from a Canine point of view, but from a humane point of view as well. We need to boycott such establishments, and add variety to these dogs gene pool. Stop showing dogs, stop breed standards, stop inbreeding. They are living creatures that look up to us...lets show them some respect.
I wished i had seen this program before buying my Cavalier King Charles puppy from who i believed to be a reputable breeder. My puppy is 25 weeks old and is very sick, i have had numerous visits to the vet, with her being treated for a severe case of kennel cough and masticatory myositis and she has now developed problems in her front legs. Inbreeding is causing these animals great distress and i would like to see these breeders and the kennel club brought to task. How dare these individuals be so arrogant in their attitude towards inbreeding. We as a society do not tolerate inbreeding amongst humans and the same should apply to all animals.I am not sure my puppy is going to survive her illnesses and this has made me more determined to ensure irresponsible breeders and puppy farms are closed down .
In a way the pedigree dog industry is rather like human modeling. there is a set standard that has to be met to be 'perfect' and 'beutiful' so all my peers spend they're time dieting and worrying about they're shape height and weight in oder to be perfect. If it wasn't for the modelling they wouldn't bother and they would stop starving themselves and having plastic surgery. The way I look at it though all people and dogs have good and bad featcures wether they are models or barmaids and should be appreciated for they're individual good featcures.
I have had Cavalier King Charles Spaniels since I was six years old. For 19 years I have had this breed in my life and they have been such loyal and fun pets. I currently have two, one of which has a heart murmur and the other which was given the all clear two weeks ago (It was such a relief). Working in the veterinary profession I see so many Cavaliers coming into practice who are in very sorry states. The owners, who bought these pets from reputable breeders believing that the dogs were healthy. I just hope that it is not too late for my beloved breed. What I saw on Pedigree dogs exposed was not at all surprising, however I was absolutely sickened when a dog won best in show when it was diagnosed with syringomyelia. I am glad that she was confronted. In my opinion, she deserved to be outed because what she did is sickening. She should not be allowed to own these beautiful dogs.
Now, the Kennel Club have logged a complaint with Offcom against the BBC for their documetary. What were they afraid of? That finally their lack of ethics has been brought to the attention of the British public? That the Head of the Kennel Club himself is involved with inbreeding his dogs? Who knows. The fact still remains that the poor dogs are the ones who are suffering. I saw well done to the RSPCA and the Dogs Trust for pulling out of Crufts, Discover Dogs etc.
I could not believe the audacity of the Ridgeback breeder who said they had to go to an old vet to get the healthy ridgless pups put down. What century are we living in? When healthy animals are put to sleep and for what? Nothing. These are healthy dogs who are being put to sleep, just because they don't fit in a breed standard? It is about time that the Government do something about this because in a few years, certain breeds are going to be disappearing and the Kennel Club will only have themselves to blame.
I did some work at a vets a while ago, one of the most distressing things i saw was a bull dog, having been artificially inseminated by the breeder, now having to undergo a ceasarean section to birth 3 pups, one still born, the other two died within 24 hours. I found out that most bull dogs cannot naturally give birth because of their size and build, surely that's nature saying it's gone too far, how are people allowed to continue breeding them?
I have not read every item on this subject but what I could not understand was.how did the rspca with the new animal law let the cavies'that were suffering with this problem and reguarly fitting and being held to the floor, exibiting to what only be discribed as 'stress and unnecerssary suffering.how can you go to someone door to check their animals, having failed to eleviate those dogs suffering or did it do some good by helping to raise funds for yourselves.you have to live by what you preach!!!.
In response Mags53- Breed standards = profit. Either financial gain to a breeder or a farmer. There is no consideration to the animals here at all. What you are talking about here is breeding animals to an accepted standard. They will obviously be: inbred, genetically demised and suffering pain all their lives-just to suite our requirements. I tend to put the needs of animals before my own. The reason that dogs trusts and animal welfare society's are so full of un-homed dogs is because people of your ideology have set standards of how a particular animal should look. I think that what you are advocating is eugenics with in animal species. Something that does equate to a Nazi Germany.
The Crux of the problem is inbreeding at all levels . Reducing genetic diversity results in unhealthy dogs . What needs to be done? Ban linebreeding, open the stud books and insist on occasional outcrosses to other breeds. It's really not that difficult.
Response to whippet - are you opposed to any thoroughbred or pedigree animal? I don't see anything wrong in breeding to a known type or trait, i.e. pedigree breeding, per se, such as Hereford or Jersey cattle, Sussex sheep, Rhode Island Red chickens, Indian Runner ducks or for that matter wild animal species that conservationists are trying to keep pure bred. Does that make all people who want to maintain these different breeds, both domesticated and wild, Nazis? By the way, written down breed standards (for dogs, cattle, chickens, etc., etc.) came AFTER the different breeds were developed for the purpose for which they were developed, for example, the trait of herding or guarding livestock, the size of the animal they were expected to herd or guard against, the terrain they herded over and the colour they needed to be to make sure that they could either blend in with the animals they were herding/guarding or stand out from the animals they were herding/guarding - some of these breeds are still used for the purpose that they were developed. Examples, sheep guarding in the mountains of Europe, hunting for the natives in Africa - yes, it's not just us British "Nazis" who have developed breeds to help us with our lives - you try telling someone who needs a guide dog that they can no longer be guaranteed one because it's more difficult to get hold of a dog that will be trainable because soemone somewhere decided that it was no longer ok to breed to a standard so that you know what size and temperament and capability any puppy may have. I suppose that you either think that we shouldn't keep pet dogs or, as we should no longer decide what we mate our dogs to, that we should just leave them wandering around mating with what-so-ever they want to mate with - the RSPCA and Dogs Trust are stuffed full of the results of this. No-one in their right mind thinks that it's ok to breed animals with genetic defects but not all pedigree breeds/dogs have genetic defects and some mongrels are born with genetic defects. In fact, genetic defects are rife in the human species and we don't interbreed - although we are pedigrees, I suppose, as we conform to a standard, it's just not written down.
rspca under 8teenz September 22, 2008 at 6:59 p.m.
Watching this program made me think of all the pedigree dogs in pain it must be hell for them and the breders can only think about the money.This has actually put me off pedigree dogs.You look how many diseases German shepherds have they have to be hip scored,eye scored and loads of things.Maybe in some way we could breed them back to how they were.But still it would take a lot of work and more than one.
In response to your comments Mags53-can you imagine if the human race had "breed standards" imposed upon it? Could you ever imagine legislation that allowed that" some breed standards have been changed in recent years to try to ensure improvements in some breeds where breeders and judges have allowed exaggeration to creep in". These are surely the words of a Nazi Germany. To quote "one of the breeds still look much the same as they do in the old paintings that I have dotted around the house" so evolution has been denied its course here then, and the genetic demise of these animals continues. Shame on you. Animal lover.
Welcome to Eisor and German Shepherd for your comments. The kennel club in this country (and most of those abroad) are run as non-profit making bodies AND do not profit from puppy breeding, monies that they make are reinvested into the world of dogs, they run health schemes and co-operate with organisations, like the RSPCA, and pay for research at places like Cambridge Veterinary School (in fact, much of the data used by this dreadful programme was taken from a reasearch programme paid for by the KC at Cambridge in their intent to improve the health of dogs). The KC also allows non-pedigree dogs to be registered with them to enable them to compete in KC regulated Agility and Obedience shows. They run a VOLUNTARY registration scheme - and dog shows are NOT beauty shows, they are confirmation and movement shows - no aspiring judge goes on a beauty seminar BUT they do go on confirmation and movement seminars. The breed standards have been much the same for years so in reality the dogs bred today should look as they did 100 years ago - some breed standards have been changed in recent years to try to ensure improvements in some breeds where breeders and judges have allowed exaggeration to creep in. I have gundogs and they are still multi-functional - one of the breeds still look much the same as they do in the old paintings that I have dotted around the house. So, please, stop blaming the KC, all breeders and all breeds for all of the ills in the pedigree dog scene, most dogs and breeds are as fit and well as the human species who own them - generalising that they are all the same is stupid and is never going to get anyone anywhere - especially the dogs. As for people who breed brother to sister; mother to son, etc. - that is seriously frowned upon BUT wild animals do do that, to animals that isn't seen to be the same as it is to us humans - thinking that animals think the same as us is a bit like buying them clothes and dressing them-up - they are not people, in fact, they are better than most people and would be very amused at the furore about this as they gallop about trying just once more to catch that bird on the edge of the field!! I'm not saying that some breeds don't have issues, that some breeders (especially puppy farmers) aren't money grabbing at the cost to the dogs and that some dogs are not very ill - but saying that that is the KCs fault and that all breeds,breeders are as bad is like saying that all humans are cruel to their animals!!
I think we need to a) educate the public a lot more on animal welfare, something that should be instilled in people at an young age and b)except the fact that dogs (like all other creatures) should evolve by evolutionary laws and not those imposed by some self imposed jumped up establishment. Any establishment that exploits or makes financial gain from animals should be outlawed.
I think the answer lies in educating the public. I've had Terveuren Belgian Shepherds for a number of years and as a breed they can have health problems. The answer is to go to a breeder who carries out health screening and who cares about the breed, I've been good friends with the breeder of my first belgian for 18 years. Don't get me wrong I love all dogs and have had cross breeds and mongrels also. If people are going to buy a pedigree puppy they should thoroughly research the possible problems can occur with the particular breed that interests them and ask for proof from breeders about what health screening they carry out on dogs that are bred from. If the breeder doesn't carry out health screening designed to eliminate problems in the breed DO NOT BUY A PUPPY OR DOG FROM THEM. Also ask if it would be possible to speak to other people who have bought puppies from the breeder in the past. Most caring breeders would be happy and proud to do this. It's important to at least see the Mother with the puppies, temperament is as important as physical health. Whatever you think of shows like Crufts, they are a good place to go to see the breed that interests you and talk to breeders and people who have puppies of that breed. Go to more that one breeder, RESEARCH AND DO NOT BUY A PUPPY ON A WHIM. I'm not forgetting all the wonderful rescue dogs waiting for homes so please don't think that I'm only in favour of pedigree puppies. It should be possible to prosecute breeders who consistently breed dogs with crippling health problems, it's cold blooded cruelty to deliberately breed for characteristics that can cause deformity and pain. Would be possible to put advertisements on TV which tell people that they should ask to see proof of health screening of the parents when buying puppies? There are some breed clubs that advocate temperament testing which might help to screen out overly aggressive or nervous temperaments, and help to cut down the number of dog attacks but perhaps that's another issue.
As an owner of boxers (can i say these are rescue dogs not puppies) i am alarmed by the rules of how a dog should look as per the kennel club. My last boxer was a white boxer, and according to KC rules at that time, should have been a dead boxer as his colour was not acceptable! He unfortunately also suffered from epilepsy, a common illness in this breed and this was probably the reason for him being in rescue. His illness (apart from the expense) was very distressing for him and ourselves. I doubt he or i would have had to go through this if people stopped interbreeding and modifying dogs unecessarily.
Kennel Clubs supposedly have strict guidlines in which the breeders must follow. Sadly it all boils down to the almighty dollar bill. Across Canada and the U.S. dogs of poor health and condition are entered into showrings because the handler/breeder has the money to pay entry fee. Ive even seen cases where a promisary note was given, allowing dogs to be entered without payment. Rigid guidelines MUST be followed in order to protect the dogs and also the unsuspecting, uneducated buyer. Clubs must make mandatory inspections and must remove any and all breeders who make infractions on ANY rules. Pedgrees can be falsified and these too must be checked through legitimate databases. Licenses MUST be revoked and SURPRISE kennel inspections must take place. A one time infraction should receive a lifetime expulsion in my opinion. From hip dysplasia, cardiomyopathy, cherry eye, heart murmors, Wobblers Syndrome and epilepsy dogs having ANY of these illnesses should be removed from any and all breeding programs....this is up to the kennel clubs to monitor NOT the average joe public or Humane Societys! I have seen all too often stories like this one. Breeders who breed solely for income and who do not care when a dog, sick, healthy, deformed or on death's door get a whopping cash grab from the sale of that puppy and then leave the outcome, pain & expense in the hands of that owner. Sires and Dam's having major medical issues, being bred continuously to promote cash flow. Its insanity! The laws are lax and unjust and protect no one. Your puppy dies of a hereditary disease and the reimbursement is a replacement puppy from the very same breeder who sold you the sick one! And it goes on and on. Someone needs to step up to the plate and take action against unscrupulous breeders, who will, in time decimate countless breeds & break millions of hearts in their quest for greed. T.L.C.
Comments
wolstie January 5, 2009 at 2:10 p.m.
I own 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks, mother and son. I bred from my girl this summer, she is a show quality dog, although I don't show her. We had a litter of 6. I placed these pups in the best homes I could find, and not for the huge prices you see some going for. I kept a dog pup, and having found a dermoid sinus in him we have recently had this removed. Yes, its been costly, and painful for him, but he is a happy pup with a fantastic temperament and will heal perfectly well, I would never have put him down. His mum has now been spayed, and he will be neutered later, I would not breed from either of them knowing that this had occured in this breeding line. I love the breed for their looks, temperament and loving nature. There is nothing wrong with wanting a pedigree dog, at least you know what your getting, but they should'nt be bred regardless of genetic, hereditary or other faults. There are responsible breeders out there, but the bad few, who ARE only in it for the money need to be weeded out. The KC along with the RSPCA should have breeder control, and enforce health checks for all breeding dogs. The KC should also refuse to register pups bred from parents who have had no health tests at all (my own dog was hip scored and in very healthy condition before the mating, as was the sire) I did all that I could to ensure we had healthy, fit pups, unfortunately the dermoid sinus was present in this one pup. It is not a result of interbreeding as the sire had no dogs in his pedigree that were in my girls pedigree. Lucky for him, I kept him and dealt with it, some breeders would have just culled him. And by the way, ridgeless pups can also have the dermoid sinus, it is rare that it occurs in the ridge itself. The ridge is NOT A DEFORMED SPINE, its just hair growing in the opposite direction, if the spine was deformed then they wouldn't be able to run so fast, and spend hours swimming, playing and chasing each other around!!
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Bonzodog December 26, 2008 at 9:09 p.m.
I have two dogs. One is a ridgeback/whippet cross, the other is a labradoodle. They are the best dogs you could wish for. The way a dog looks shouldn't matter: if it's happy and healthy, NOTHING else should matter.
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georginga December 26, 2008 at 5:46 a.m.
I grew up with Setters, and as far as i'm aware responsible breeders for these dog types, and i'm sure the same applies to other pedigrees too, research the sire before they pair him with their bitch to ensure minimal chance of hereditary problems, eg hip defects seen in gun dogs. I have no doubt most responsible dog breeders who get into their business do so due to a love of the breed / dogs and thus take utmost care to avoid the terrible problems that sometimes befall certain breeds due to the inbreeding that has gone on over so many years!
Naturally the BBC show in question picked up on a certain breeder who was ignoring her duties, but you will always get some who spoil things for others, making everyone else look bad too... I'm sure if the Kennel Club introduced some sort of service to assist in the pairing of dogs and bitches to avoid these conditions in their offspring, with some certification to say it has been undertaken then it would be welcomed by both responsible breeders and potential owners cautious after hearing about some of the harrowing conditions some dogs fall victim to... as long as no guarantees were attached to it!
In fact by supervising breeding of pedigrees in a more regimental way this could also assist in the wiping out of that far more cruel and horrific system of PUPPY FARMING, which we still seem yet to be able to eradicate from our 'animal friendly' land. Harrods is even selling puppies in its store for obscene prices, in a manner far removed from the recommended 'meet the parents' or at least 'meet the mother' Who is to know what condition these puppies were born in, at around £1000 a go they could be farmed intensively then sold on for a very tidy profit! But then wot else would you expect from a store which sells fur! I do wish we could make them reconsider their policy on both these issues.
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Chloe December 18, 2008 at 7:20 a.m.
I don't think any of us are trying to say that all pedigree dogs are deformed and being maltreated. But cruelty is occuring and that is what we are saying should be stopped, you can't deny that some breeds are being abused, with snouts that cause breathing difficulties etc. there is scientific evidence of this. You only have to look back at how dogs used to be, what they used to look like, to know that some of the traits we are breeding into them are damaging them. I for one am not accusing every pedigree dog owner of cruelty in that they are being mistreated. However, it is human opinion, our perception of how these dogs "should" look and our dictation that has led to most of these problems, and that is what I think should be stopped. If we stopped artificially breeding these animals what would happen? They would eventually return to their original shape/size/colour, the phenotype that they first evolved into in order to survive. They wouldn't have had such high incidences of breathing problems, because they would have adapted to overcome the short snout causing the problems. What we are doing to some pedigree dogs is reversing the effects of evolution.
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Mags53 December 14, 2008 at 4:12 p.m.
Chloe - no it isn't. What it is is evidence that these days the media, biased or not, is more powerful than the whole truth. The person who made the docuumentary has openly admitted that she biased the programme to get a reaction. No-one is saying that some breeds do not have major issues but they are by far the minority and the programme said ALL breeds were affected and that just is not true.
My biggest problem with this, because I know that the breeds that I have are healthy and that there are tests in place to make sure that they are, is that I can now NEVER again watch a BBC documentary without feeling that I am being misled and that what it is saying is just not true; that makes me sad as I trusted them to always be honest and unbiased BECAUSE they should be as we pay for them to be honest.
Also, I am extremely disappointed with the RSPCA, Dogs Trust and PDSA because they have allowed a media farce to affect their behaviour and again they are reliant on OUR money - if there are such bad issues then the very last thing that they should do is move away from the pedigree dog world BUT they have. They should be being much more involved, they should go to Crufts and set-up displayes showing all of the pedigree dogs that they have seen that have health issues and help to force through change.
I personally do not care if Crufts is on the telly or not, it managed well before telly and can and will do so again. There are thousands of us who own and love pedigree dogs and we will always go to Crufts and Discover Dogs.
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Chloe December 14, 2008 at 11:07 a.m.
Surely the evidence that the BBC has ditched showing Crufts is evidence enough to show that there is sufficient evidence of cruelty?
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Mags53 December 12, 2008 at 4:44 p.m.
Well, have just arrived back from my latest visit to a championship dog show where 4863 pedigree - yes, pedigree - hounds, terriers and gundogs were entered. I have to say, given that they are all mutants who are in great pain and are all suffering from the most dreadful illnesses and deformaties they ALL seemed well, happy and fit (try chasing after one if they manage to get away to see if they are fit-for-purpose)!! Vets MUST have some excellent drugs available to them to be able to so successfully mask the horrendous genetical problems that the dogs all suffer from, I wish that the same drugs had been avilable to me when I had an immune system problems 30 years ago, perhaps then I wouldn't have been disabled for so long!!!
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voice November 30, 2008 at 10:49 a.m.
I watched pedigree dogs exposed and was horrified. i was angry at the old school sort of breeders talking about 'furnishings' and the sight of the German Shepherds who evn a child could see were lame and looked abnormal and I couoldn't believe they were in the show ring.
However, I think the programme was biased and should have showed more view points from nice breeders, rather than just the uncaring ones. I think the programme should have showed what the kennel club have done, and showed some of the good in health tests. I really think this programme is going to alienate the breeders and therefore KC will have no control over progession.
i also think the rspca just wiping there hands of the KC was a silly move. how is the rspca going to be able to have its say now.
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voice November 30, 2008 at 10:19 a.m.
sirius u are obviously very passionate about dogs and are one of the caring ones. but please read my arguement posted below as well as this one.
at my work (a vets)an owner brought her 10 week old husky puppy in for vaccinations. she had told us the story of the breeder.
the breeder had wanted to but the litter to sleep because she did not think they were of showing standards. the vet refused so the breeder handed the puppies into husky rescue. once the puppies were weaned the breeder went back to husky rescue, took her pick of the puppies she wanted to keep and abandoned the ones she thought weren't good enough. I realise this is probably a fairly isolated case but killing healthy dogs for looks does happen. may be the kennel club don't agree with it, i don't know, but many beeders do and I cannot see how they can call themselves dog lovers. there are many loving caring breeders out there and it is a shame they are now all being discriminated against.
personally when i do get a dog of my own, i will go to a rescue centre. if the right dog for me that i there at the time is a pedigree, i will get a pedigree, but if it is a mongrel i will be just as happy.
dogs are dogs and whatever there looks they deserve to be loved and treated with respect.
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voice November 30, 2008 at 10:12 a.m.
Mags53 I would just like to say I disagree with u about your comments on neutering.
if an owner if no going to breed form a dog it is unfair psychologically to not castrate him. imagine having the hormones that make u wnat to mate consantly circulating the body telling him to do it everytime he smells a bitch in season. yet he is retrained and cannot carry out what nature is telling him to do. that dog will be frustrated, and quite often will vent that frustration through aggression and destructiveness.
yes surgery has a small risk but what about testicular tumours and prostatic health problems, perineal hernias and the list goes on?
Bitches may not get as frustrated but it is sad to see someof them go through pseudo-pregnancies.
and again, surgery has a small risk involved but what about pyometras, mammary tumours that metastise to the lungs etc. these are life threatening. the risk of urinary incontinence is not completely understood yet but i think the risk of incontinence outways a pyometra.
(a pyometra is a severe infection of the uterus and can kill a otherwise healthy dog very quickly)
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voice November 30, 2008 at 10:02 a.m.
Many pedigree dogs are happy and healthy, and many breeders are lovely caring people. It is a shame that the nasty ones are pulling the reputation so low.
I am a veterinary nurse and agree that all dogs get sick but nobody can deny that some breeds pass on healh issues. how many king charles spaniels have I seen being treated for heart conditions, how many spaniels have I seen with really disgusting ears, how many squashed faced breeds have I seen with BAOS?, how many germa shepherds have i seen with pretty much everything going wrong. Some of these illness are do to with the aging process and but there is no way anybody can deny that these health issues are more likely to be there at some point in a pedigree's life.
I am not saying stop breeding them. just stop breeding to such an extreme. the breeds have been exaggerated. the victorians were stupid. they didn't have veterinary experts in those days. look at how they treated there servants. if they werent from a good family they were shunned adn the kids coldn't go to school. we've moved on in all these areas so when are we gonna move on when it comes to dog breed?
I am also not saying ban dog shows. many dogs enjoy them and owners. But healthy happy dogs should be considered a championship example of a breed. not a dog that is suffering.
The kennel club have started the hip and elbow dysplasia scheme and many eye health tests to enjoy that healthy breeding is considered. however, i dont think enough breeders are taking part. people who are buying dogs need to be more educated into what they are looking for so that breeders are forced to do the necessary tests.
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Dobiegirl November 29, 2008 at 3:03 p.m.
KC needs to bring in health tests, simple as!
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Rabbit crazy November 29, 2008 at 11:58 a.m.
I think dogs should be born naturally.
There isn't really anything else to it, there was someone on my street who had the most ugliest dog in the world!
It had a squashed face with stubby little legs and she hardly ever took it out for a walk, and when she did try to it wouldn't go so she stuck it in her handbag!
Thank lord she left with that horrifying little rat!
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PlaygirlNix November 28, 2008 at 10:48 a.m.
I have a pedigree Beared Collie, he is now 16 years old and we have had him since he was a baby. In the first 13 years we only had to take him to the vets for his boosters and once to get checked out after getting attacked by another dog. Admittedly the last 3 years he has had to go alot more due to various different things such as skin problems & ear infections, but these things the vet has confirmed are down to old age!! I honestly think i've had to take my rabbit to the vets more and i've only had him for 2 years!!
And his breeders weren't in it for the money (although i'm sure it must have been nice!) They were serious dog lovers. I have never seen such a loving home.
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sirius November 25, 2008 at 10:24 p.m.
5427 well I am pleased y our Meg is so loved and well cared for. However please do make such daft statements regarding pedigree dogs, ALL dogs be they have a pedigree or not can get an infection and just because a dog is a pedigree does not mean IT will get an infection!!! The vast majority of breeds do not have ANY exaggeration and lead happy healthy lives, the prime concern for any good breeder is the health and welfare of the dog they breed and a prime concern is the temperament of the dog and its offspring, in fact knowing the personality and temperament a dog is in fact the appeal for many people to own a pedigree dog, as with most cross breeds and mongrels the health and temperament of the dogs are often the breeders (if there has been a breeder involved) last concern. The Kennel Club for a long time have campaigned that dogs be “Fit for purpose and Fit for life” (another point the makers of PDE chose to ignore). As for short legged dogs not being able to run one of my breeds is shorter on the leg and can outrun ANY dog you would like to name.
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5427 November 25, 2008 at 5:11 p.m.
I REALLY don't agree with breeding pedigree dogs. OK, so not all pedigree dogs have problems and infections but It's sick the way people breed dogs to have squished faces and legs so short they can barely run. I have a dog called Meg. She's a mixture of different breeds and she must be the happiest dog in the world! She's free from infections and she can run so fast. We didn't choose her because of the way she looks or what breed she is, but because she is so happy and we love her to bits!
My point is that I think dogs would be so much happier if they could do the things that they would love to do, and not get infections due to appearance.
Ellie x
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Genie November 25, 2008 at 11 a.m.
Sirius, i think you're wrong. Tammeazile has a point. okai so it may not be completely accurate coz in most cases pedigree doesn't mean pain but on the other hand in some cases it does!
we wouldn't not be friends with someone just because they're deaf or onli have 3 fingers so why should our dogs be any different? They shouldn't be bred for certain looks and expectations.
Natural is best!!
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sirius November 24, 2008 at 4:07 p.m.
Tammeazile, Where on earth do you get the idea that pedigree dogs = pain, the VAST majority of pedigree dogs are happy healthy and loved and are produced by people who care for their welfare by having ALL the relevant health checks done, raising them in the correct way and with loved and kindness and ensuring they only go to good homes. The PDE programme has made the work done over the years by good breeder , the BVA and the Kennel Club and twisted it to suit them selves.
Niblats yes I agree everyone is entitled to their own opinion, BUT I HAVE NEVER CONDONED the destruction of healthy dogs just because of their colour or markings!!! Pleased check back all I have put on here and see that is the case.......what you have said about me is deeply offensive. The Kennel Club HAVE NEVER told anyone to kill puppies because they do not look like the standard, please check your facts before making suck claims. There has been so many people obsessed by the breed standards on this blog and blame them for how THEY THINK dogs are, the vast majority of dogs do not match the standards 100% (that is why there are so few champions and even they are not 100% perfect and no one has bred the perfect dog) . Please Please Please people go to a local dog show and just watch the dogs there talk to the owners and the breeders about their dogs and how they love and care for them and do not listen to the rubbish and lies that was in PDE. Niblats I can understand how upset you must feel think of any dogs life being destroyed but what comment do you have on the 7,506 dogs destroyed by the RSPCA last year that is almost half the number they found homes for yet they had £320,000,000.00 last year to look after those dogs.
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Tammeazile November 22, 2008 at 4:16 p.m.
We have to start thinking about why we buy dogs. They are called man's best friend right? They're not a fashion statement but a companion, do we really care about what our friends look like? It's got to the extent where dogs are being bred to look their best not to be sold for their friendship, loyalty and comics. We are animals ourselves, so when it comes to friends would we rather have a friendly, comforting and funny but ugly friend, or one that's in a lot of pain and can't do much for you but looks the best. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with disabled people but when it comes to our pets its down to their breeding which we can do something about, it's our falt they're in pain.If the demand for the pedigree dogs ceases they'll stop breeding dogs like that. Pedigree means pain for the animal. It needs to be stopped.
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niblats November 21, 2008 at 9:37 p.m.
sirius, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you think that the influence from the kennel club to kill some breeds of healthy puppies because they don't have the so called right markings on their fur or the influence to breed some dogs with health problems is the right thing to do, to living breathing animals then thats your opinion. But I think that the kennel club are contradicting themselves, by helping to save animals lives but telling people to kill the ones that they don't think look right. No I don't think that all the kennel clubs work has been a disaster, but I think that they are influencing people to do the wrong thing like letting people think that they can just put a dog down with no second thoughts only because it does not have the so called right markings.
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Mags53 November 14, 2008 at 8:52 p.m.
By the way, let's just remember that the station who broadcast this bias is the same one that broadcast the Russel Brand/Jonathan Ross programme that has caused so much trouble. It is basically flawed. The RSPCA is the same organisation that happily takes money raised from pedigree dog shows but then stabs them in the back - that claims to have the interests of all animals at heart but is moving away from helping pedigree dogs due to a knee jerk reaction to a very biased programme.
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Mags53 November 14, 2008 at 8:48 p.m.
I have had pedigree dogs now for 34 years and as yet have never had one with an hereditory problem. I have had one with a retained testicle due to trauma (common in humans who aren't interbred) and one with a wheat intolerance (same as me and I'm not interbred). Except for accidents they have NEVER needed veterinay attention for any condition (maybe a few more visits when they're over 10 years old). They have GOOD pedigrees, are shown (if they like it - most do) and I qualify them for Crufts. Sooooooooooooo NOT ALL PEDIGREE DOGS HAVE PROBLEMS. I have three with me now and they are all fine.
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 12:34 p.m.
K9Love most of the breed standards do not need re writing in any way (the last major review was under the direction of a former President of the British Veterinary Association). The vast majority of people who breed dogs do not show them and pay little or no attention to the standards, so changing them would have no effect. Your description of breed standard dogs I also find as offensive as you have found criticism of working dogs saying that you think they cannot walk properly have you ever been to a major show and seen the thousands of happy health fit animals there?
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 12:33 p.m.
The accusation you have made if unfounded is as bad as the one you took offense over. I am sorry your dog has an allergy problem but these can be brought on by so many things and have very little if anything to with their genetic background but often by their environment, food or as the result of a previous condition. If they appear to have problems with their back legs I assume you have had it hip scored or his patella’s assed by your vet and as a dog handler I assume you must be aware of all the KC/BVA health checks . The fact that you went to buy a pedigree dog I assumed that YOU had checked out the breeder in advance (and they your suitability to be a dog owner too) you asked and seen proof of hip and eye status of the parents and you had seen the pedigree so you could decide you thought in your view it was acceptable, after all of this you could of done prior to even seeing a
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 12:33 p.m.
puppy let alone choosing one (such options you would of not had when buying a mongrel), if you did like what you had been shown you SHOULD not of bought the dog, The KC would and do provide all potential owners advice on what they should look for and ask when looking for a new puppy. As for having dog licenses like in the past the good dog owner would buy them and a bad one would not, so not solving any problem. As for vets putting down healthy dog none would do so for purely cosmetic reasons, however if you see my previous posting the RSPCA does not have a good record in that area.
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K9LOVE November 14, 2008 at 10:15 a.m.
Hi, I work with Dogs Day in Day out as a dog handler, i have a Pedigree Labrador who i get a vets bill on average once a month for due to Allergies, and he appears tired on his back legs on occassions, his pedigree is very interbreed and i fear i may not hold on to him as long as i would hope. i have a "Mutt" cross breed Spaniel, for search work, he only goes to the vets for a Vac once a year, i love all my dogs, but in the long run i would like a dog to be healthy, i dont care what they look like. The Kennel club needs to review every breed and re-write the breed standards, also stop interbreeding. mom and dad should have diffrent pedigree lines from 4 generations, i also found it, in very bad taste that working dogs where told they where not the correct standard, my working german shepherd can do everything and can walk, where breed standard dogs can hardly walk. I also feel that the kennel club should speak to people breeding working strains of dogs as the dogs are healthy, workable and people friendly. And Vets should be Finned if found to be putting Dogs to sleep, just because of there looks. i'm also a great believer in bringing back dog licences, maybe if someone sensible looked at everything from the dogs point and not us mere humans they would see, dogs came to be mans best friend,and we are killing them slowly, what friends are we to them.
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kmarsh November 14, 2008 at 3:50 a.m.
i think that is is just plain wrong what they do to the porr animals they neva did any thing 2 u. so just leave them alone please so i can sleep easier at nite and i dont have 2 worry how those dogs r getting treated. so i say please 4 every 1's pice of mind dont hurt tha little animals. please. cause i have had 2 tell some 1 about some animal abuse
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 1:34 a.m.
Ok lets get some balance on this subject. The producer of the programme has now publicly admitted that she wanted to shock people and did not think that the Kennel Club or those associated with it should be able to be given a voice as to what major steps and work have already been achieved in the world of canine health via it many schemes and practices and policies. There is now acknowledgement that most of the information given was either misleading, vastly inflated or downright lies. She said it was not her job to ensure that the programme was balanced in any way or should show the WHOLE picture in the world of pedigree dogs but just what SHE wanted to show.
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 1:32 a.m.
Yes in the past and I mean over 40 years ago it was custom for some breeders to cull puppies be it because they had a large litter and the bitch would have trouble rearing them all (this normally advised by a vet) or it was because the puppies may have a fault (and not a aesthetic one) but if in some breed all white animals would be born deaf many breeders would have such puppies humanely destroyed. However this type of practice has all but been stopped in the last 30 years and to be honest I have not heard of anyone who has done so for many many years, the producers of the programme picked on two selected breeds and then tried to bend the truth to make it look like the Kennel Club condoned such policy which it has and does not! People forget that most show dogs are first and foremost people well cared for and beloved pets sharing their owners lives and homes, they have to be of good temperament (after all how many dogs would take to having complete stranger inspect every part of their body up to 60 or more times a year) and be surrounded by thousands of other dogs.
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 1:32 a.m.
Most show dogs spend a very small percentage of their lives at shows, and if they did not enjoy the experience they would not and could not be successfully shown by their owners.Breed standard are only a guide/blue print for an ideal and only a very small will be a perfect fit to that (and only in some judges eye) and all standards have a wide variance within them so to think that a dog is discarded because it does not meet a standard 100% is a stupid statement to make!! You must also remember that many of the standards in existence are based on the Country of origin or the FCI and not just by the Kennel Club,
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 1:31 a.m.
yet the producers did not make any comment as to how other breeds look around the rest of the world. The type of GSD shown in the programme is the one favoured in other parts of Europe and again no reference to this was made. #1Doggy Lover the person you state was the KC Manager is in fact its Chairman and is a very knowledgeable and caring man (his family have had dogs at the highest of lever for many generation) the tone of questioning he faced on the practice of Line Breeding and not In-breeding was both insulting and calculated. Although to humans the practice of mating a bitch to its grandsire would seem quite unacceptable (and rightly so)
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 1:30 a.m.
in NATURE this in fact a common occurrence and for many pack and herd animals, or to put it in another way if an area has many stray dogs it will be the strongest and normally most aggressive dog that will mate with all the bitches in an area as he is the dominant, he will mate them regardless of what relationship he is to them be it father, grandfather or even brother, and many mongrels and cross breeds would be the result of such matings. Line mating to a common ancestor (four or more generations back) can be used to fix type in a breed , and yes it may bring out a genetic fault but it is as likely to prevent a gene being inherited and eradicate a genetic disorder and the actual
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 1:30 a.m.
Eddlol you could not be more wrong the Kennel Club do not and never have had such a rule.........what make you think they have?
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 12:54 a.m.
According to the annual report in 2007 the RSPCA rehomed/released (released means gave back to when dog was lost) 15,787 dogs yet it Humane euthanasia(ie destroyed)7,506 dogs more than HALF the dogs it rehomed!!! In fact in 2007 the RSPCA euthanized 66,489 animals (granted it less than the 72,042 they destroyed in 2006!!).
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 12:54 a.m.
Their income in for 2007 was £114,100,000, it has £83.2 million in fixed assets, it has £123.5 million in investments so over £206 million pounds in assets and investments alone. Yet it spent £8,189,000 on campaigns and media work £1,349,000 on its Governance costs, and it it paid just 18 of its employees a total of £1.2 Million pounds in one year. So you asked can my source be trusted?
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sirius November 14, 2008 at 12:53 a.m.
Well its all there in the RSPCA Annual review for 2007 – Trustees and Financial report (on the RSPCA web site). If the people at Passionate Productions really cared about animals perhaps they should of investigated the people who pay the that former TV presenter as their CHIEF vet!! And ask why an organisation who had access to over £320 million pounds in one year still destroys over 7,500 dogs...now that is a dogs story that should be exposed
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Genie November 13, 2008 at 3:03 p.m.
Dogs are not trophies!!
They should be able to live normal lives not have their future depnd on what standards they reach.
Culling dogs because they not breeding material is just disgusting. what right do we have to determine their future like that?!
Dogs that don't meet standards should be handed over and re-homed so that they can be loved and have a normal life not killed.
It's not their fault so why should they be punished for it?
I'm ashamed to be the same species as anyone who thinks that this is acceptable...
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#1 Doggy Lover November 11, 2008 at 6:26 p.m.
when people cull pups just bcause they dont meet "breed standerds" its just Cruelty!!!
and also on the tv programme pedigree dogs exposed the kennel club manager admitted mating grandparents and grandchildren thats just wrong!!!
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eddlol November 11, 2008 at 8:13 a.m.
its mean to kill ridge back pups just because they dont have a ridge. those pups have NOT got a desies and the kennel club say its a rule.
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Mags53 October 26, 2008 at 9:59 p.m.
mebecki - dogs don't want the same life as a human, they want the same life as a dog. They want freedom to express natural behaviour, to have the chance to run and sniff, and to eat decent food; they want the kindness and loyalty of their owner, whom they will follow to the end of the earth.
niblats - the KC represent pedigree dogs and crossbreed dogs, and not all pedigree dogs are disasters; hardly any of them are - before you make statements like that find out what percentage have problems then compare that with the percentage of humans and other species that are "disasters".
I think that people are mistaking pedigree dogs as all having been bred on puppy farms and, therefore, having behavioural and health issues - they don't have.
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sirius October 25, 2008 at 11:08 p.m.
Niblats the primary objective of the Kennel Club is 'to promote in every way, the general improvement of dogs'. This includes its work with pedigree, cross breeds and companion animal. So what makes you think they are NOT working for the benefit of ALL dogs............ can you names one organisation that raise so much money for canine causes each year (through its charitable and its educational trusts, well over £3,000,000 donated todate), defends the rights of ALL dog owners(campaigning against the use of electric shock collars, dangerous dogs, puppy farming, chemicals testing on dogs, dog and cat fur, dog control orders and access at local and national levels of goverment) the school education schemes (SAS), the YKC, the good citizen training scheme, all the health checks schemes with the BVA,Discover Dogs, Scrufts, Working Trials and the setting up and running of the Petlog Scheme, and this is just a very small amount of work they do each year.......so Niblats would you say all this work has been a disaster??
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niblats October 25, 2008 at 9:29 p.m.
quite frankly, I think the kennel club should stop and think about whether they are representing pedigree dogs or pedigree disasters.
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mebecki October 17, 2008 at 3:46 p.m.
I think that pedigree dogs should get the same life style as if the dog was a human. They shoulld get feed and have a proper home.
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sirius October 16, 2008 at 9:20 p.m.
Well Dawnie you put in your blog the following “My puppy is 25 weeks old and is very sick, i have had numerous visits to the vet, with her being treated for a severe case of kennel cough and masticatory myositis and she has now developed problems in her front legs. Inbreeding is causing these animals great distress and i would like to see these breeders and the kennel club brought to task” both the conditions you say your dog has are common to all dogs regardless of what or how they may be bred, neither are the caused of a genetic inheritance. Yet you go onto blame breeders and the Kennel Club for inbreeding, so if they are not linked why blame them?!? Resistance to infectious disease is not just about genetics, it also is to do with nutrition, environment, previous infections/illnesses . Masticatory myositis can affect many breeds/and non breeds of dogs as it would appear not to be inherited, yet the mode of inheritance or the frequency in dogs is still being investigated by breeders working WITH the veterinary practitioners, good breeder do care and strive to improve the health and welfare of their dogs. You say about needing stricter guidelines on breeding healthier dogs the following is what the KC recommends “Before breeding from a dog or bitch, the Kennel Club advises breeders to investigate whether there are any possible inherited conditions that may affect the breed. Breeders can do this by discussing the matter with the breeder of their dog, the relevant breed club or clubs, the Kennel Club Health & Information Department or, possibly, their veterinary surgeon. There are several health schemes currently in operation to assist in the prevention or control of some diseases (including DNA tests), and where they exist, the Kennel Club strongly recommends that both sire and dam are tested” The following is from the British Veterinary Association/Kennel Club report for 2007 “Joint Veterinary Screening Schemes with the B VA, The three schemes (KC/BVA Hip and Elbow Schemes and the KC/BVA/ISDS Eye Scheme) have continued to see increased submission rates. Approximately 11,500 certificates were processed by the BVA for the Hip Scheme, 1,400 for the Elbow Scheme and 18,000 for the Eye Scheme. The Kennel Club has made a commitment to use this health screening data to provide more informed feedback on the impact and progress of the schemes to breeders, with the intent of encouraging greater use. To this end, 5-year rolling mean hip scores for all of those breeds where more than 100 dogs have been scored are now being calculated. In almost all cases, this mean is falling year-on-year, indicating that hip scoring is having the desired effect, namely reducing the average hip score in future generations.” So in 2007 alone in just three of the schemes almost 32,000 examinations took place and these schemes have been running for many many years now, the work put in by the BVA,KC and breeders show THEY CARE and HAVE been taking action.
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Dawnie October 16, 2008 at 7:38 p.m.
i never once said that kennel cough is caused by inbreeding i know it's a virus, however the other health issues my dog has, has just made me think that in general these dogs would be healthier and have a fightng chance to overcome some of the more commom ailments if stricter guidelines on breeding were put place.
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sirius October 16, 2008 at 4:49 p.m.
Well Whippet let’s check out some of YOUR claims on here on the 27 Sept you criticized Mags 53 by saying "The reason that dogs trusts and animal welfare society's are so full of un-homed dogs is because people of your ideology have set standards of how a particular animal should look” Well there are over 850 Breed Rescue representative covering ALL the registered breeds(I can send you a list if you like), covering all over the country funded entirely by Breed clubs and individuals within breeds. The homes that any rescue dog is placed in are vetted to high standards, and the care of the dog is put above all other concerns, RSPCA REFUSE to work with breed clubs (unlike Battersea). Pedigree dog owners and breeder take great responsibility for their own breeds. If you look at the vast majority of dogs in rescue centres they are cross breed or mongrels, so how do you support you claim that the set standards of how a dog should look is the reason for these homes being full of un-homed dogs?!?!?!
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sirius October 16, 2008 at 2:27 p.m.
Well Whippet you think I am boasting do you?? Why is that?? All I have written is things that I can back up with evidence by recognised published bodies and also after a lifetime in dogs (both pedigree and non pedigree) with over 35 years of experience in breeding and showing dog, working on Breed Club Committees, raising funds for welfare homes, dealing with breed rescue, as a Trustee of a canine welfare charity. My dogs first and foremost are my pets and companions. The breeds I have like ALL DOGS (not just pedigree) have some health conditions and I have worked over the years to reduce these, like all in my breed have, people who have devoted much of their life to a breed see themselves as just custodians and strive to keep that breed healthy and happy and protected. I am sure Mags 53 can stand up for their self, but you say that my comments are ill informed, subjective and disrespectful and without substantiation, please tell me just which ones have been and (as you say they are wrong tell me what proof you have?) I have only replied to comments posted by others. Tell me how many breed standards have you read and disagreed with there are approx 210 of them, just how many of them do you say are wrong? you say that breeds need to have their gene pools widen, are you not aware of the many hundreds of dogs imported from across the world each year to here to do that? The numbers of puppies from AI produced from dogs abroad (supported by the KC) each year, or the dogs that the KC have put on its register to allow gene pools to be extended (the Working Bloodhounds last year, the allowance of boxers to be crossed with Corgi to have a natural shorten tail) the practice you say takes place of inbreeding has for the past 30+ years rarely taken place with the exception of Puppies farmers who cannot be bother to, widen their gene pools (they are also unlike to register any dog with the KC but still will want to call them pedigrees). On 27/9 you said “Breed standards = profit. Either financial gain to a breeder or a farmer” so what of the people who now advertise cross breeds in the paper for £300, are they doing it for the love of dogs or money? You said that animals “should evolve by evolutionary laws” the vast majority of breeds have done so be that the climate or environmental areas they have come from, can the same be now said of the “Designer Breeds” like Cockerpoos or Labradoodles??? You said from a professional point of view that I need to do more research, please what is your professional standing and how much ACTUAL scientific and practical research have you done? You like to brand others with shame and labeling them as not being animal lovers.................. well be open and listen to others people knoweldge, experience and views, learn before you decide to shame others quite so quickly.
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Mags53 October 16, 2008 at 12:25 p.m.
I post to these blogs from both a professional and personal viewpoint, with many years experience of owning and breeding animals. I view all subjects objectively not subjectively and do not have pre-conceived views on topics, I always look at the facts from all sides before forming an opinion - and am always willing to change my opinion if new facts prove that I am wrong; I accept that people are entitled to their own opinion and no one opinion is always right or wrong. I have never said here that all pedigree dogs or other types of pedigree animal are ALL free of devastating health problems BUT refute absolutely the premise that ALL pedigree dogs, etc. are genetically compromised and suffer lives of pain and ill health - because I have owned them for years and know that they are not. The damage done through this programme is that the RSPCA have alienated people who would have helped with improving things by stating, categorically, that ALL pedigree dogs are genetic mutants (and that term has a very specific meaning in genetic terms) and live a life of pain. Owners and breeders of pedigree dogs have worked for years to raise funds for the RSPCA and the RSPCA themselves have been given thousands of pounds by the Kennel Club for research projects raised by donations from the dog showing, working and competing world. It saddens me when extremists with a biased and sweeping view of subjects think that they are right in everything they say and take people who have a little knowledge with them. I wonder how many people who are posting here are aware of the actions taken by the KC since this programme? Actions that were already in the pipeline for the benefit of some of the breeds badly affected by health issues - and yes there are some where I think that the people who breed them should be horse-whipped - but as I've said before, these breeds are very much in the minority.
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whippet October 15, 2008 at 8:18 p.m.
Can I just say from a professional view point, regarding the comments of Sirius and mags53, that you really do need to do some more research before boasting such comments to this blog. Your comments are as ill informed as they are subjective. They are also disrespectful and without substantiation, and therefore are not worthy of reply. Call yourself s animal lovers...you are the very people we are campaigning against.
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Mags53 October 14, 2008 at 7:47 p.m.
I've just noticed that one or two comments here seem to indicate that people show their dogs at shows for financial gain. I'd just like to point out that at most shows all that you win is a piece of card saying what place you were awarded. The Crufts Best in Show winner receives the sum of £100 for beating several thousand other dogs - so we don't do it to win money - it costs you money.
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sirius October 12, 2008 at 12:39 p.m.
Jelly cat yes it was a long comment but it is a very big subject of which many people only pick on one point and not the whole picture.
Megank, well if you want to blame the anyone for how Greyhounds are the Kennel Club is the last place, as they are a vulnerable breed ie there is less than three hundred dogs registered with them each year (in truth only about 10 litters are registered) the shape of the modern greyhound is all to do with racing dog, of which the Kennel Club HAVE NEVER had any say/control. If you a programme wants to expose THE biggest exploitation of dogs it should be the greyhound industry which has very little regulation or control and thousands of dogs are discarded by each year , after all how many other breeds have to have National Rescue trust for them? As breed Pugs and Bulldogs are things I do not find attractive (but many do thats why they are popular pets) however again many believe what they are shown on TV when just ONE old photo or ONE copy of a painting is SELECTED/USED to what the PRODUCERS of a programme say a breed SHOULD look like. Look at a number or old books and paintings and you will see there were many many different TYPEs within each breed as there still are today!!! (a little anatomy point for you a pig has a snout, a dog has a muzzle), Bulldogs and Pugs ears have stayed the same over 100 years and are no different now as they were then!?! So not sure why you say they are smaller?!?
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megank October 12, 2008 at 9:41 a.m.
did you know, pugs, bulldogs, and basset hounds werent always like they are now!! they had long legs, little ears and long snouts. But because of imperfect breeding, they had become small , squatty, wrinkled nosed dogs that many think are ugly.
Greyhounds are becoming vunerable to this as people are force breeding them to become better athletes, but instead what they'll get is a bad backed dog with limp legs that has to be put down.
Please help put a stop to this and help protect our beautiful dog breeds!!!
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Jelly Cat Jen October 12, 2008 at 9:21 a.m.
This was WaaaaaaaaaaaaaaY to looooooooooooooong
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sirius October 12, 2008 at 12:22 a.m.
Sorry manage to put my blog the wrong way round!!! well I am not a techie when it comes to PC, but please look at what I have said and I willbe happy to discuss or defend any point I have put and listen to what you think.
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sirius October 12, 2008 at 12:17 a.m.
PART 3 NOtned yes the KC does have it head quarters in London but so does the RSPCA (I wonder if saying that will stop this blog?) but every year all the profits it makes from Crufts and any from the registration system goes back into canine Welfare via its charitable trust (the RSPCA have just had £45,000 from it) it also provides education support for schools and children on how to handle care and behave around dogs, it produces a Rescue Directory each year that lists the thousands of people who work for breed rescues and general canine charities and send it free to all police stations and vets all over the country and to anyone who requests a copy . KT & Dilian well you might disagree with Crufts but have you ever been to it (or the other 28 general championship shows held each year?) what people forget is all the dogs shown are living with people and are in the vast majority of cases people much loved pets. In fact most show dogs are far better tempered as they need to be physically examined by the judge (in some cases up to 5 judges in one day) and be in a ring with many many others dogs. The KC will in fact ban any dog who has been proved to have bitten a person or another dogs at a show, and will not allow any progeny they may be produced to be registered (there for stopping them from being shown or bred from) are any mongrels tested in this way? Sorry if this has upset many people but this is just the tip of the iceberg as to the misinformation by this programme and many comments post by people who have not looked at the full picture. Just to quantify myself I have been involved in dogs for over 40 years and am a third generation of a family who have shown, bred and loved their dogs, I work for a local canine society, I judge at Championship level shows (and temperament and soundness is key above anything for me!!!) and I am a trustee of a canine charity who deals with rescue and street dogs . I will be the first to admit that there are many bad practices in pedigree dogs but this programme was unbalance , bias, inaccurate, and in some cases has now made the plight of all dogs far worse, to quantify I now see people purposely breeding mongrel litters with NO health checks, no guarantee to take back the dog (as all responsible breeders do) but charge instead £ 400, which just goes into the pocket and the poor dogs I suspect into rescue centre in a years time!!
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sirius October 12, 2008 at 12:17 a.m.
PART 2 The KC and the many vets schools have been working (and funding)not just in this country but all over the world to find new DNA test to reduce and eliminate. This program set out to sensationalise and showed just how poor it was researched and biased it was. The claim that £10M is spent each week on dogs at vets, did they say on what?? This would include vaccinations, check ups, caring after accidents, infections and diseases , these thing affect ALL dogs. The claim the Members of the Kennel Club were followers of HItlers was deeply offending!!! Eugenics is not a Evil plot to produce a PURE BLOOD race, it is the same thing practice by horse breeders or plant growers or anyone who looks to preserve a species/breed, the main proponent of this is Mother Nature herself, after a Lion is cat and so is a Tiger but they do not mate together do they!!! And as for in breeding in a wolf pack only the dominate female allowed to breed, and then when she is usurped normally by her daughter then only she will breed, well this means that genetic material of the pack will get reduced far more than any one who may line breed. As for the sad shot in the programme of the Boxer who fitted, the produces failed (they say it was an error) to mention that it does so only once a month and not as it was portrayed in the programme a several times a day, but I agree once a moth is too much. However did the mention all the work done by breed clubs and the Kennel club on this matter...No of course they didn’t, the same as the vet who was interviewed for an hour but only a few seconds of film was used and out of context as it did not match the message the producers wanted to give!!! In reply to Jess who rightly say many cross breeds and mongeral dogs need home, but can she tell me how many of these are checked for hip eye, patella, temperament problems?? No because people who breed them cant be bothered!!! And yes they do suffer with these problems. .
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sirius October 12, 2008 at 12:16 a.m.
Having read through the comments on this site I find it hard to understand how many people manage to get some simple things , the person who thinks their dog has Kennel Cough as it is inbred!!! ITS A VIRUS ANY DOG CAN CATCH IT!!!. (well the produce of the programme think that her dog got cancer as it was inbred, so does that mean all people who have cancer are inbred!!, of course not emotions and sense do not always work together) Jean Levit not about one of her poor dogs that suffer with epilepsy it would of appeared to have bought from a Kennel that sell on dogs such places are dealers/puppy farmers and not reputable breeders who do such health check (did you have the status of the pups parents hips and eyes given to you?) if you had researched yourself with the help of the Kennel Club or Breed clubs you could of gone to a good breeder, yet you say you don’t register dogs at the KC as you say it is cruel and so is Crufts , yet they are the one who have and are doing the work and test you have chosen not to take advantage of?!? As for Penny who call for a country wide database of dogs who have failed test, well this is run by the Kennel club who publish all passes and fails of dogs in the KC/BVA test in the Breed Record Supplements 4 times a year (again the programme failed to mention any of this!!) As for Chloe who praises Mark Evans whos says dogs shows are cruel for dogs, yet how many have visited? (I doubt ever been to a dog show,?) If he has how many in the past year? Five years? 20 years? And how many of the dog there did he examine ? surely he must have his own personal evidence to back up the claim that show dogs are mutants and cripple?!?, as for discrimination for the colour of a dogs coat it has been proven that some colours are linked with hereditary problems (ie pure white boxer are often totally deaf), the vast majority of dogs have developed over many hundreds of years by either the environment they have come from or the purpose they were used for (a basic principle of Darwin) For well over 30 years good breeders have had their dogs checked through the Kennel Club/B.V.A Health Scheme for many conditions (over £20,000,000 on hip scoring alone in recent years) this has enabled them to breed sounder healthier dogs, and have reduced many problems that breeds have faced in the past
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Laila October 11, 2008 at 10:45 a.m.
I cant help but feeling angry and disgusted with the people breeding dogs that will have poor quality of life due to inbreeding. I cannot understand that this is being allowed. It simply has to stop, before it gets more out of control.
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Mags53 October 7, 2008 at 9:33 p.m.
The Kennel Club aren't strict about what you show and the breed standards. They may "own" the standards but it is the seperate breeds who define their standards. The breed standards are relatively vague and allow for a great deal of individual interpretation, that's why you get so many different types within breeds, and you do have some very different types within the same breed. Judges who reward over exaggeration are a problem - quickly followed by breeders who breed to that to win BUT not all breeders and judges do this. So long as the dog is actually registered with the KC you can show it; this does largely mean that it has to have had parents, etc. that are registered. Basset hounds that are still used as pack hounds a very different from the ones that are now shown BUT I could get a pack hound and show it so long as I had made sure that it is KC registered - I may not win with it but the KC would allow me to show it - it would be the judges who wouldn't reward it. The KC and breed clubs have done lots of work in recent years to improve the health of breeds who have health issues - no-one is saying that they don't need to do more and in some cases to be much more stringent with a few breeds that have issues. BUT, as I said at the start, alienating all people who own and breed pedigree dogs by saying that they are all mutants, with ill health, who live a life of pain is counterproductive and, frankly, so far from the truth, that only the easily duped, the ignorant or the prejudiced would take it seriously.
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cullamubba October 7, 2008 at 9:02 p.m.
i dont think it is what actually happens in the shows themselves, i think it is the way it is judged, or rather the strictness of the kennel club.
if they werent soo strict on what they were looking for, breeders wouldnt feel the need to exaggerate the features the judges look for, the gene pools wouldnt be soo small and the diseases wouldnt be soo much of a problem.
at least noadays people are more aware of what they are doing and breeders that may have bred their dogs the wrong ways unknowingly, may now be aware of it and so it is happening less but if crufts and the kennel club continue to be soo strict on what they consider to be the 'perfect look' of each breed, the problem will still exist in breeders insistant on achieving this look.
also whilst these breeds are promoted on crufts, the public will still want them making it a worthwhile buisness for things like puppy farms.
no one is questioning what happens in the shows themselves, or at least i'm not. it's the message they are putting across to the public and more importantly what is not being told, i.e. what the BBC documentary did tell.
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Mags53 October 7, 2008 at 6:15 p.m.
Whether Crufts is televised or not is a whole different argument, it was around for years before the telly got involved. There are hundreds of shows every year where people show their dogs, some of which qualify them for Crufts. Not shows like the Companion show held at the local fete, but run on similar lines to Crufts, which is just another championship show. These shows also sometimes include agility, obedience, etc. Crufts and other shows aren't just about the dogs, the handlers skills at handling their dog is also partly under test. The concept of Crufts and the KC isn't what causes problems in dogs but unscrupulous breeders/puppy farmers - they are what need to be stopped. I think that many people who have been blogging on this site have a limited knowledge about pedigree breeds and dog shows.
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cullamubba October 7, 2008 at 11:08 a.m.
i dont disagree with the showing of dogs or agility at all. i'd love to get my younger dog involved in agility. the problem with crufts is the perception it gives of pedigree dogs and that they are ment to look a certain way.
years and years ago people picked certain traits to use in hunting or whatever and thats where to trouble start but to be fair, people all those years ago didnt know what damage they would cause in the future.
the problem now is that it is still happening when breeders (again not saying all breeders) are fully aware of what it's doing and the reason it is still happening is because soo few people are aware of the problems so are more than willing to pay hundreds for a pedigree pup that may well have health problems.
i'm not saying all pedigree breeds have health problems because i have a pedigree westie and a pedigree sheltie and nether have had any health problems, or at least no genetic ones.
the problem with crufts is that it is promoting these breeds to the public sat at home watching, most of whom wont be aware of the problems.
so i dont disagree with showing in general and i'm not saying that dogs dont like it cos i know my dogs love anything like that where they get attention and praise but crufts is way too specific on the dogs look etc which is why it shouldnt be televised because it gives the wrong message to people watching.
the people showing and alot of the people who actually go to watch are probably well aware of all of this stuff anyway so it doesnt need to be stopped altogether just revised on how it's judged, and promoting a better message to those watching. i just dont think it should be on tv.
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Mags53 October 6, 2008 at 8:13 p.m.
I don't think that dogs should be neutered/spayed just so that owners can let them roam - I don't believe in putting any animal to an operation for no good reason - cats are a different matter, it is cruel to try to keep them at home all of the time. I know that accidents happen but that's what the morning after pill is for. I know LOTS of people who have spayed bitches a huge percentage suffer from a degree of incontinence and neutered dogs are often mounted by both dogs and bitches, it's cruel to do this unless they need it to cure a medical problem. And, I still say that NOT ALL PEDIGREE DOGS ARE SICK AND IN PAIN. Please do not brand all breeds the same - lets get everyone on board to help to sort out the breeds that do need help AND to expose the breeders who breed from dogs that have not been health tested. I have a dog with me now who is 9 years old and has not been to the vet since his last booster jab at 1 year old (I don't believe in annual boosters because they can cause damage) - he is fit and healthy AND A GOOD PEDIGREE WHO HAS COMPETED AT CRUFTS. I show my dogs as I have fun and so do they - and if they don't have fun I don't make them, they are after all my pets, going to shows is what we do together, some people do obedience or agility, I do shows. By the way, you can show speyed and neutered dogs.
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cullamubba October 6, 2008 at 4:49 p.m.
I've been doing alot of research on this subject for a course i'm doing and i'm finding it very hard to find anything good that comes from crufts to actually make a good arguement for an essay.
but anyway my main reason for posting is i've noticed that at least 1 person on this topic has said that theres no reason to spay/neuter dogs just because they have health issues, and also that theres health risks involved in the procedure.
i would just like to set this one straight. dogsdo not have the mental capacity (as much as we might like to think so) to understand the implications of bringing more pups into this world whether we are talking inherited health issues or just adding to the growing overpopulation problem in this country. they breed by instinct, they do not have an emotional need to breed so there is no way you can compare them to a human who will bring a child into this world and care for it for at least 18 years and never stop loving it.
there are no major risks involved with the procedure itself and any health issues that occur because of it such as incontenence in females, is soo uncommon that it barely stands up as an arguement not to spay/neuter.
as for believing that you can simply not let ur dog out to be able to breed, i find that very naive. accidents happen and spaying/neutering is the only way to ensure you will not bring any more unwanted pups into this world when shelters are already heaving with perfectly good dogs looking for homes, many of which will never get and will end up being put down.
the whole crufts issue only adds to this problem as breeders are bringing more and more pups along and encouraging the mostly unknowing public to buy them.
i'm not saying people should stop breeding altogether, but it should be regulated and people should be encouraged to go to shelters more than breeders.
i have 2 pedigree dogs myself, both bought long before i was aware of any of these issues but i can safely say had i known all of this i would have gone striaght to a shelter!
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skaletto October 5, 2008 at 8:56 p.m.
there should be an end to it - and puppy farming - there are enough dogs in shelters who need help, they are the ones who need homes.
it's not only the kennel club that are wrong here, it's also the customers of the kennel club. people should boycott getting the 'perfect pet' - that's the only way this will stop. however there are certain members of society who just simply do not care for animal welfare; they just want a cute pet!! i can almost guarantee that even after this programme, some people will continue funding crufts and the kennel club.
my dog is super cute and he's a rescue - as dollymay62 said, you can't beat a cross breed!!
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whippet October 5, 2008 at 7:39 p.m.
I agree totally with you Dawnie, we could still have our breeds of dog, for they already exist, but, because of the kennel club, they are becoming increasingly inbred to meet 'show standard' requirements. Very sad, not just from a Canine point of view, but from a humane point of view as well. We need to boycott such establishments, and add variety to these dogs gene pool. Stop showing dogs, stop breed standards, stop inbreeding. They are living creatures that look up to us...lets show them some respect.
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Dawnie October 5, 2008 at 1:53 p.m.
I wished i had seen this program before buying my Cavalier King Charles puppy from who i believed to be a reputable breeder. My puppy is 25 weeks old and is very sick, i have had numerous visits to the vet, with her being treated for a severe case of kennel cough and masticatory myositis and she has now developed problems in her front legs. Inbreeding is causing these animals great distress and i would like to see these breeders and the kennel club brought to task. How dare these individuals be so arrogant in their attitude towards inbreeding. We as a society do not tolerate inbreeding amongst humans and the same should apply to all animals.I am not sure my puppy is going to survive her illnesses and this has made me more determined to ensure irresponsible breeders and puppy farms are closed down .
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Horse Love October 5, 2008 at 12:23 p.m.
In a way the pedigree dog industry is rather like human modeling. there is a set standard that has to be met to be 'perfect' and 'beutiful' so all my peers spend they're time dieting and worrying about they're shape height and weight in oder to be perfect. If it wasn't for the modelling they wouldn't bother and they would stop starving themselves and having plastic surgery. The way I look at it though all people and dogs have good and bad featcures wether they are models or barmaids and should be appreciated for they're individual good featcures.
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Lex October 4, 2008 at 9:30 p.m.
I have had Cavalier King Charles Spaniels since I was six years old. For 19 years I have had this breed in my life and they have been such loyal and fun pets. I currently have two, one of which has a heart murmur and the other which was given the all clear two weeks ago (It was such a relief). Working in the veterinary profession I see so many Cavaliers coming into practice who are in very sorry states. The owners, who bought these pets from reputable breeders believing that the dogs were healthy. I just hope that it is not too late for my beloved breed. What I saw on Pedigree dogs exposed was not at all surprising, however I was absolutely sickened when a dog won best in show when it was diagnosed with syringomyelia. I am glad that she was confronted. In my opinion, she deserved to be outed because what she did is sickening. She should not be allowed to own these beautiful dogs.
Now, the Kennel Club have logged a complaint with Offcom against the BBC for their documetary. What were they afraid of? That finally their lack of ethics has been brought to the attention of the British public? That the Head of the Kennel Club himself is involved with inbreeding his dogs? Who knows. The fact still remains that the poor dogs are the ones who are suffering. I saw well done to the RSPCA and the Dogs Trust for pulling out of Crufts, Discover Dogs etc.
I could not believe the audacity of the Ridgeback breeder who said they had to go to an old vet to get the healthy ridgless pups put down. What century are we living in? When healthy animals are put to sleep and for what? Nothing. These are healthy dogs who are being put to sleep, just because they don't fit in a breed standard? It is about time that the Government do something about this because in a few years, certain breeds are going to be disappearing and the Kennel Club will only have themselves to blame.
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EKC September 30, 2008 at 7:22 p.m.
I did some work at a vets a while ago, one of the most distressing things i saw was a bull dog, having been artificially inseminated by the breeder, now having to undergo a ceasarean section to birth 3 pups, one still born, the other two died within 24 hours. I found out that most bull dogs cannot naturally give birth because of their size and build, surely that's nature saying it's gone too far, how are people allowed to continue breeding them?
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vigilante September 28, 2008 at 7:42 p.m.
I have not read every item on this subject but what I could not understand was.how did the rspca with the new animal law let the cavies'that were suffering with this problem and reguarly fitting and being held to the floor,
exibiting to what only be discribed as 'stress and unnecerssary suffering.how can you go to someone door to check their animals, having failed to eleviate those dogs suffering or did it do some good by helping to raise funds for yourselves.you have to live by what you preach!!!.
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whippet September 27, 2008 at 10:06 p.m.
In response Mags53- Breed standards = profit. Either financial gain to a breeder or a farmer. There is no consideration to the animals here at all. What you are talking about here is breeding animals to an accepted standard. They will obviously be: inbred, genetically demised and suffering pain all their lives-just to suite our requirements. I tend to put the needs of animals before my own. The reason that dogs trusts and animal welfare society's are so full of un-homed dogs is because people of your ideology have set standards of how a particular animal should look. I think that what you are advocating is eugenics with in animal species. Something that does equate to a Nazi Germany.
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Hayley1 September 27, 2008 at 7:22 p.m.
The Crux of the problem is inbreeding at all levels
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Reducing genetic diversity results in unhealthy dogs
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What needs to be done? Ban linebreeding, open the stud books and insist on occasional outcrosses to other breeds. It's really not that difficult.
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Mags53 September 23, 2008 at 11:34 p.m.
Response to whippet - are you opposed to any thoroughbred or pedigree animal? I don't see anything wrong in breeding to a known type or trait, i.e. pedigree breeding, per se, such as Hereford or Jersey cattle, Sussex sheep, Rhode Island Red chickens, Indian Runner ducks or for that matter wild animal species that conservationists are trying to keep pure bred. Does that make all people who want to maintain these different breeds, both domesticated and wild, Nazis? By the way, written down breed standards (for dogs, cattle, chickens, etc., etc.) came AFTER the different breeds were developed for the purpose for which they were developed, for example, the trait of herding or guarding livestock, the size of the animal they were expected to herd or guard against, the terrain they herded over and the colour they needed to be to make sure that they could either blend in with the animals they were herding/guarding or stand out from the animals they were herding/guarding - some of these breeds are still used for the purpose that they were developed. Examples, sheep guarding in the mountains of Europe, hunting for the natives in Africa - yes, it's not just us British "Nazis" who have developed breeds to help us with our lives - you try telling someone who needs a guide dog that they can no longer be guaranteed one because it's more difficult to get hold of a dog that will be trainable because soemone somewhere decided that it was no longer ok to breed to a standard so that you know what size and temperament and capability any puppy may have. I suppose that you either think that we shouldn't keep pet dogs or, as we should no longer decide what we mate our dogs to, that we should just leave them wandering around mating with what-so-ever they want to mate with - the RSPCA and Dogs Trust are stuffed full of the results of this. No-one in their right mind thinks that it's ok to breed animals with genetic defects but not all pedigree breeds/dogs have genetic defects and some mongrels are born with genetic defects. In fact, genetic defects are rife in the human species and we don't interbreed - although we are pedigrees, I suppose, as we conform to a standard, it's just not written down.
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rspca under 8teenz September 22, 2008 at 6:59 p.m.
Watching this program made me think of all the pedigree dogs in pain it must be hell for them and the breders can only think about the money.This has actually put me off pedigree dogs.You look how many diseases German shepherds have they have to be hip scored,eye scored and loads of things.Maybe in some way we could breed them back to how they were.But still it would take a lot of work and more than one.
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whippet September 20, 2008 at 9:20 p.m.
In response to your comments Mags53-can you imagine if the human race had "breed standards" imposed upon it? Could you ever imagine legislation that allowed that" some breed standards have been changed in recent years to try to ensure improvements in some breeds where breeders and judges have allowed exaggeration to creep in". These are surely the words of a Nazi Germany. To quote "one of the breeds still look much the same as they do in the old paintings that I have dotted around the house" so evolution has been denied its course here then, and the genetic demise of these animals continues. Shame on you. Animal lover.
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Mags53 September 20, 2008 at 2:10 p.m.
Welcome to Eisor and German Shepherd for your comments. The kennel club in this country (and most of those abroad) are run as non-profit making bodies AND do not profit from puppy breeding, monies that they make are reinvested into the world of dogs, they run health schemes and co-operate with organisations, like the RSPCA, and pay for research at places like Cambridge Veterinary School (in fact, much of the data used by this dreadful programme was taken from a reasearch programme paid for by the KC at Cambridge in their intent to improve the health of dogs). The KC also allows non-pedigree dogs to be registered with them to enable them to compete in KC regulated Agility and Obedience shows. They run a VOLUNTARY registration scheme - and dog shows are NOT beauty shows, they are confirmation and movement shows - no aspiring judge goes on a beauty seminar BUT they do go on confirmation and movement seminars. The breed standards have been much the same for years so in reality the dogs bred today should look as they did 100 years ago - some breed standards have been changed in recent years to try to ensure improvements in some breeds where breeders and judges have allowed exaggeration to creep in. I have gundogs and they are still multi-functional - one of the breeds still look much the same as they do in the old paintings that I have dotted around the house. So, please, stop blaming the KC, all breeders and all breeds for all of the ills in the pedigree dog scene, most dogs and breeds are as fit and well as the human species who own them - generalising that they are all the same is stupid and is never going to get anyone anywhere - especially the dogs. As for people who breed brother to sister; mother to son, etc. - that is seriously frowned upon BUT wild animals do do that, to animals that isn't seen to be the same as it is to us humans - thinking that animals think the same as us is a bit like buying them clothes and dressing them-up - they are not people, in fact, they are better than most people and would be very amused at the furore about this as they gallop about trying just once more to catch that bird on the edge of the field!! I'm not saying that some breeds don't have issues, that some breeders (especially puppy farmers) aren't money grabbing at the cost to the dogs and that some dogs are not very ill - but saying that that is the KCs fault and that all breeds,breeders are as bad is like saying that all humans are cruel to their animals!!
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whippet September 19, 2008 at 9 p.m.
I think we need to a) educate the public a lot more on animal welfare, something that should be instilled in people at an young age and b)except the fact that dogs (like all other creatures) should evolve by evolutionary laws and not those imposed by some self imposed jumped up establishment. Any establishment that exploits or makes financial gain from animals should be outlawed.
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chatname September 19, 2008 at 8:11 p.m.
I think the answer lies in educating the public. I've had Terveuren Belgian Shepherds for a number of years and as a breed they can have health problems. The answer is to go to a breeder who carries out health screening and who cares about the breed, I've been good friends with the breeder of my first belgian for 18 years. Don't get me wrong I love all dogs and have had cross breeds and mongrels also. If people are going to buy a pedigree puppy they should thoroughly research the possible problems can occur with the particular breed that interests them and ask for proof from breeders about what health screening they carry out on dogs that are bred from. If the breeder doesn't carry out health screening designed to eliminate problems in the breed DO NOT BUY A PUPPY OR DOG FROM THEM. Also ask if it would be possible to speak to other people who have bought puppies from the breeder in the past. Most caring breeders would be happy and proud to do this. It's important to at least see the Mother with the puppies, temperament is as important as physical health. Whatever you think of shows like Crufts, they are a good place to go to see the breed that interests you and talk to breeders and people who have puppies of that breed. Go to more that one breeder, RESEARCH AND DO NOT BUY A PUPPY ON A WHIM. I'm not forgetting all the wonderful rescue dogs waiting for homes so please don't think that I'm only in favour of pedigree puppies. It should be possible to prosecute breeders who consistently breed dogs with crippling health problems, it's cold blooded cruelty to deliberately breed for characteristics that can cause deformity and pain. Would be possible to put advertisements on TV which tell people that they should ask to see proof of health screening of the parents when buying puppies? There are some breed clubs that advocate temperament testing which might help to screen out overly aggressive or nervous temperaments, and help to cut down the number of dog attacks but perhaps that's another issue.
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shakeyjake September 19, 2008 at 5:45 p.m.
As an owner of boxers (can i say these are rescue dogs not puppies) i am alarmed by the rules of how a dog should look as per the kennel club. My last boxer was a white boxer, and according to KC rules at that time, should have been a dead boxer as his colour was not acceptable! He unfortunately also suffered from epilepsy, a common illness in this breed and this was probably the reason for him being in rescue. His illness (apart from the expense) was very distressing for him and ourselves. I doubt he or i would have had to go through this if people stopped interbreeding and modifying dogs unecessarily.
Liz
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T.L.C. September 19, 2008 at 4:03 p.m.
Kennel Clubs supposedly have strict guidlines in which the breeders must follow. Sadly it all boils down to the almighty dollar bill. Across Canada and the U.S. dogs of poor health and condition are entered into showrings because the handler/breeder has the money to pay entry fee. Ive even seen cases where a promisary note was given, allowing dogs to be entered without payment.
Rigid guidelines MUST be followed in order to protect the dogs and also the unsuspecting, uneducated buyer. Clubs must make mandatory inspections and must remove any and all breeders who make infractions on ANY rules. Pedgrees can be falsified and these too must be checked through legitimate databases. Licenses MUST be revoked and SURPRISE kennel inspections must take place. A one time infraction should receive a lifetime expulsion in my opinion.
From hip dysplasia, cardiomyopathy, cherry eye, heart murmors, Wobblers Syndrome and epilepsy dogs having ANY of these illnesses should be removed from any and all breeding programs....this is up to the kennel clubs to monitor NOT the average joe public or Humane Societys!
I have seen all too often stories like this one. Breeders who breed solely for income and who do not care when a dog, sick, healthy, deformed or on death's door get a whopping cash grab from the sale of that puppy and then leave the outcome, pain & expense in the hands of that owner.
Sires and Dam's having major medical issues, being bred continuously to promote cash flow. Its insanity!
The laws are lax and unjust and protect no one. Your puppy dies of a hereditary disease and the reimbursement is a replacement puppy from the very same breeder who sold you the sick one! And it goes on and on.
Someone needs to step up to the plate and take action against unscrupulous breeders, who will, in time decimate countless breeds & break millions of hearts in their quest for greed.
T.L.C.
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German Shepherd September 19, 2008 at 11:51 a.m.